Chris Kling: 0:22

Hello and welcome to tape talks to another episode and with me right here he's sitting in LA at the moment is Eric Boulanger. And he is a mastering engineer. And also he is quite into vinyl. We're gonna hear a whole lot about this topic in this episode. But first and foremost now welcome, Eric. How you doing?

Eric Boulanger: 0:48

Great. How are you?

Chris Kling: 0:50

I'm doing good. What's the time at your place At the moment? I forgot to look it up.

Eric Boulanger: 0:54

I was about to say this is a an exciting time difference here. It's 11am. And we're experiencing a heatwave over here. And it's already on and well in Celsius yesterday. I think it was 44.

Chris Kling: 1:11

Oh, wow. Really?

Eric Boulanger: 1:13

Yeah. In parts of La It was almost around 115 degrees Fahrenheit. So I don't know if I'm doing that math. Right. Sorry. I'm on the spot. Let's just say bloody hot and we will all understand. And it's already hot here. And I even live at the beach. So you know, we have slightly cooler temperatures coming off the ocean. And it's still bloody hot. So. But nonetheless, it's 11am over here and what that means it's eight something at night. 20 hours by you?

Chris Kling: 1:49

Yes, that's correct. And the heat wave is not here anymore. So maybe if you're lucky, you get our cool weather. I try to send it over. So Eric, let me say a few introductory words about you. You are founder of the bakery, which is a mastering studio and a vinyl cutting plant. And you are also an accomplished professional studio violinist. Apart from that you have worked as a mastering engineer for Green Day, Hozier, Colby Callay, One Republic, Eric Burdon, Neil Young, the doors. And you've been mentored by the one and only legendary Al Schmitt. And also, you joined the mastering lab together with the awesome very well known Doug Sax. So in this talk, I would be more interested in talking with you about vinyl, you built the mastering laps of vinyl mastering room. I mean, it was 2009 when you did this, what was the initial spark for that decision to build this?

Eric Boulanger: 2:56

Doug, when he opened the mastering lab really did invent the idea of independent mastering because everything up until that point, the labels had their own studios, the engineers, the producers, everyone who worked on a record was all under one roof. And they mix it and then it go to transfer engineers. And they were termed transfer engineers, because they typically take it from a tape or something maybe live. But that would be what gets it on to the lacquer for duplication. And it was far less of an art. It was just take it or leave it. It was Doug's original idea with working with Lincoln. You know, they were all high school friends. Lincoln got the record deal, that whole thing he went down the Hollywood path, Doug, who was I believe the same age, if not maybe a year difference went off into the seventh army Symphony. Which would have been just after the Korean War. And as you can imagine, what the temperature of the military environment and mind you the draft was in effect back then. many talented musicians who were 18 years old with all tryout for the various army or Navy bands or orchestras because you weren't on the front lines. And so Doug was an incredibly accomplished trumpet player he studied at UCLA and got into the seventh army Symphony when he got out of the army, came back to LA met back up with his friend Lincoln Mayorga to do a few recordings at a recording studio. Strictly because Lincoln had money and it was fun.

Chris Kling: 4:53

That sounds reasonable.

Eric Boulanger: 4:55

Yeah, and for the first time in their lives, they weren't listening to a tape. Or a dubbed copy or anything. And what they were listening to, was the engineer at the studio. Just it was two mics on a piano, Lincoln messing around and recording straight to a lacquer at 78 rpm. When they drop the needle on that. Apparently, their jaws hit the ground. And because they didn't realize that, that could do that. And instantly, Doug had the idea. He's like, Well, why does everything else sound like crap? He's like, we can do this better. And Doug was like, we can make this into a business. And that's when his brother was like a business. And so, what year was that? 19? Well, this would have been 65/66. The mastering lab was founded established in 1967. In fact, I believe, technically the first mastering project Doug ever did at the mastering lab, from what I remember, would have been December 26 1967. Because the whole joke was it was right after Christmas. And he was the only Jew who would take a job that came out of nowhere. Really, because Mind you, you have to realize that they invented mastering like Christmas time was like, Oh, I gotta get my record mastered. No, that didn't exist. And so somehow, something came along the lines. And then, you know, not to stick with the Christmas theme, but the snowball got rolling. And, you know, the mastering lab started making a name for itself, and particularly amongst producers, who were also going freelance at the time from labels, you know, it was a formative time of just business in the music industry. And, you know, both artists and producers were like, well, this sounds better with what this guy's doing. Why would we want anything else gave birth to literally the concept of independent mastering meaning cutting a record, not under the roof of a label, because of that opened the door for the artistic side of things, which is deliberately changing a few things to achieve a sound that everyone wants. And we can get into that later. But getting into now fast forwarding to 2009. And the only question you have asked me this far.

Chris Kling: 7:37

I mean, that was a good intro to point out that the vinyl is in the DNA of the whole mastering lab already.

Eric Boulanger: 7:44

Well, of course, because I mean, also, when the mastering lab opened, it was the only game in town. Like it's if you listen to a record, that was the only way. And, you know, it's been a long lineage since but in 2009, to answer your question, it certainly was not my decision. I mean, I was still a young snot nosed kid, 11 years ago, so I guess I would have been 24.

Chris Kling: 8:12

Wow. Okay.

Eric Boulanger: 8:14

And the fact of the matter was, in year 2000, before I started working for him, I started working for Doug in 2007. For perspective, but in 2000, at the original Hollywood location, that's when Doug had taken out of the lathes and put everything into storage, because the vinyl business was just gone.

Chris Kling: 8:36

Yeah, though, there were no more vinyl machines in

Eric Boulanger: 8:39

There just was no work and nothing made sense. the studio. So he took everything out, put it in storage. And when that was done, it was taken out in a way as if it was never coming back. So well, it was not pretty is the point. fast forward. You know, I started working for Doug and already by the time in 2007, that I started working for Doug, which was after my internship at Capitol and work and mentoring with Al. And even at that time, like there were certain records that were starting to go out on vinyl like the the whole resurgence, as we would call it was starting to pick up steam. And it just started being almost commonplace that Doug would master an album, and especially the good ones or the bigger label ones, and then the next request would be, how can you make a high res master so we can cut vinyl? Now you can imagine from Doug's standpoint, I mean, first of all, he puts his heart and soul into mastering the record digitally. And obviously, that's why everyone would go to him. But then we're getting asked for a high res and this thing is going to like chop shops across the The planet. And what I mean by a chop shop is like, you know, vinyl pressing plants that either have popped up or you know, they're responding to this whole resurgence and they're still around. And, you know, it's kind of a new age vision of what vinyl is. It's a, you know, to so many people at the label, they think it's like, oh, we're gonna make vinyl. So upload the files, just like you do to Spotify. And then we'll get vinyl records. Obviously, we know that has nothing to do with the intricacies and the true difficulty and the art of actually making a record sound good. And a lot of these plants are very happy to oblige, because it's just business. And so we're getting off, you know, for records that sound absolutely incredible. I mean, hell on iTunes, which is, at that time before I did mastered for iTunes, even. So that was coming off of our ddps or CD masters. The point is a compressed from a 44-16. Like you know, CD master an afterthought was sounding bette than the vinyl that was comin back from wherever the hel these labels were pressing this

Chris Kling: 11:17

Yeah. So you decided you needed something like that reflected the quality?

Eric Boulanger: 11:23

This was all Doug's idea. In fact, when he said he wants to bring it back, I told him, he was crazy. Well, I mean, he was crazy. He wasn't that idea wasn't crazy. I think I was more in denial that I realized that I would be the one who would have to build this.

Chris Kling: 11:41

But how did this come along? I mean, you were like you just said 24 years old. And most of your time that you're alive, actually, vinyl was dead? And what got you digging into this lost art? And also, where did you acquire that knowledge to build like a state of the art vinyl mastering room in that age,

Eric Boulanger: 12:02

I suppose the the one thing you left out from my bio was, I actually changed. I changed course in life. And I ended up actually getting an electrical engineering degree from Carnegie Mellon, just because I enjoyed being in a recording studio. And I figured that like, I knew music already. So I had to do that. And trust me, I bet off way more than I could chew. You know, I went too far down the lines of electrical engineering. And I mean, it was just a great experience. I mean, it's it's more a testament to, you know, university and, and studies and pushing yourself and realizing, you know, what your capability is. But nonetheless, certainly, that was applicable to what I had to do with the vinyl thing. With getting the vinyl studio at the mastering lab back up and going, that was 100%, Doug's idea he wanted to do and everything. Yeah, I was the young little guru who was fixing and modding everything at the studio anyway. So he's like up your job. And you could not have said anything more true. A second ago, when he said that I didn't grow up in the vinyl age. In fact, it was probably one of my favorite moments I even had with Doug. While I was halfway through building the room. I mean, I was pulling all types of hours sleeping at the studio, all that sort of thing. And, I mean, it must have been somewhere around midnight, one random day, when I was, let's say, 30% of the way through this build. And so you know, the whole room looks like a construction zone and laboratory and just general nightmare. But Doug randomly comes in at like, around midnight, to play Solitaire. So he probably just got into a fight with his wife or something and wanted to, to leave. And he comes in, he's like, what are you doing here? I'm like, I don't know, building your room. And he's like, he was kind of happy to see someone. He's like, Let's go upstairs, play some pool and have a drink. I was like, okay, you're the boss. Great. And in this process, I forget exactly what he said. But I realized that he just wasn't getting it. And I was like, okay, Doug, you know, when you're in like, let's say, sixth grade. So, you know, for us, what's that, like around 11 or 12 years old. You go out with your friends on like a bike ride and your parents give you a little allowance money and you save it up. And you go to the record store to buy music because now that's the cool thing to do. And your parents aren't there to tell you like what you can or can't listen to. And he's like, yeah, I'm like, do you know what I do? Bought, and he starts rattling off bands like and it was ridiculous. He's like Led Zeppelin. I was like, I was like, Okay, yeah, definitely too old and definitely missing the point here. And he kept on at raffling off more bands and stuff like that. And I was like, No, Doug, I bought a CD. And he's like, No, no, I was like, there was not vinyl in the store. I'm like, there was still cassette. On the like, you know, the the outer perimeter. Like for us, it was the sand goodies, the store. Yeah, like the cassette tapes, it would be like on the outside wall of the store, like lining the perimeter. Because it was just like, if your car didn't have a CD player, that's, that was your plan B. But like the entire store was only CD.

Chris Kling: 15:52

So how did he react?

Eric Boulanger: 15:54

He nearly dropped his whiskey.I was like, Doug, you do realize that you are tasking me with building the finest like laid that's been known to man kind like resurrecting it? Yeah. And cutting records, when I still to this day have never bought a vinyl record in my life. And he's like, no,

Chris Kling: 16:18

that's amazing.

Eric Boulanger: 16:19

I should say that I did beat him at pool that night. First thing,

Chris Kling: 16:23

maybe he was confused.

Eric Boulanger: 16:25

I think he was very distracted. Because Doug could shoot really well. I think he was just floored by the fact that

Chris Kling: 16:32

you are a different generation.

Eric Boulanger: 16:34

Yeah, like straight up. I mean, technically, we were two generations apart. But he just couldn't believe it.

Chris Kling: 16:42

All right. I mean, that's interesting. So that was 2009. And you were just at the wrong spot at the wrong part of time to be just pushed, or the right one.

Eric Boulanger: 16:54

I mean, certainly, in retrospect, you know, it wasn't exactly an idea that I was necessarily keen on. But it certainly was the right spot at the right time. But you know, the,

Chris Kling: 17:09

but what's your opinion, if I may just drop in right there. You said that Doug, or whoever, or the labels, whatever, you saw the signs and time that this is coming back. And people want vinyl records again, and this is a fact that is still ongoing. I mean, it's a niche, but it's a niche that is thriving in its form?

Eric Boulanger: 17:31

Well, I say this all the time. And I can answer that question with 100% confidence. You know, one of these days, maybe people and our industry are going to realize that we're not selling formats. And you know, so long has always been the case of labels wanting to sell formats. We go from vinyl, to cassette to CD to digital, blah, blah, blah. And it's all about that, you know, trying to monetize something and have a product. We're not selling formats, the reason why people are buying music in the first place, no matter what the format is, is because what we're selling our experiences, and that experience has had gotten, absolutely, for lack of a better term, raped of every aspect that made it fun, engaging, community wise, like you'd invite your friends over and everything like I mean, we went from literally box sets and beautiful presentations of vinyl records. Mind you, the only reason why we did that in the first place was you have to fit a damn 12 inch disc. Somehow, I mean, it's big, all the way down into you know, the era that even I grew up in, I would admit it I was one of those high school kids who found Napster and I was like, This is the second coming of Christ like you know, I the RA would be very disappointed with me. But at the same extent, you know, the what we were downloading and everything, it was just pure quantity. You barely listen to anything the mp3 had revoid of even artwork or anything, like it was just it was stripped of the entire experience. And so this carried on, even into, you know, the budding of the next generation and shouldn't come as any surprise that the number one demographic of who buys new vinyl these days are teenagers. It's because we stripped the experience down to literally just a speaker cone Moving to. And now what's happening with everything that's going on? is it's the push back on, okay, we got over the whole convenience thing. Now everything's convenient no matter what you do. Now we want the experience back. That's what's happening. That's what accounts for vinyl coming back. It's not a niche, it's nothing like that, you know, screw the whole sound quality claims and everything, you know, the vast majority of vinyl that's cut even. I mean, it's not like it's coming from a different source or some magical like, Oh, well, you know, we cut the vinyl while we were recording and it didn't go through the mixer, anything is totally pure. Now it's coming from the same source and the same Master, you know, so engineering wise, it's a generation later, even. But the reason why there's this connotation, even of superior sound quality, whether or not it's just, there are plenty of situations where Yes,it comes out superior.

Chris Kling: 21:06

But you know, before you carry on, because I prepared something right here, because you said when we finished the last production that we did, that went to vinyl as well. And we had a longer chat on the phone as well. And you said something like that you like to educate artists and engineers about this format, because there's so many misconceptions, or you want to drop in, say something there?

Eric Boulanger: 21:31

Well, I suppose, before we go down that road, which I know where you're going, which is important. But the fact of the matter is, before people think that I'm just dogging on the quality of vinyl, which isn't true, because it's can be an exceptional format, certainly is the best experience. But the main, the main thing I would get people to think about like as a mental exercise is when you have people who are crazy about final and swearing about, you know, the quality, and that being the only reason why vinyl is coming back. And every other format is going away like that's, that's comparing an apple and orange because you have to realize, yes, what do you have to do to listen to a new vinyl record? Well, you have to find it, you're either ordering it off the internet, and it's being delivered to your house or your if stores still exist, you're going to a store to buy it, pick it up and bring it back to your house. Now most people have these things called jobs. So once they get out of work, and they get this album, you're very excited because you figured out how to get it. If it were me, I'd be going to the store and buying a six pack of beer as well. You show up to your house after work with your six pack. And you either have the vinyl from the record store or you show up in the mailman left this nice package with your vinyl record in it. Pick it up, you go into your living room. What do you need to play a vinyl record? You need a turntable? Which prob Yeah, 99% of the time is probably plugged into a receiver. And these things called large speakers not Yes, a Bluetooth pill, you know, and you have to take care of your vinyl record because if you mess it up, you're gonna mess it up. So you take care of it, you take it out of the sleeve, place it down, you drop it at the start of the record, you take the packaging with you because it's nice and heavy. You pick up that cold beer that you just got and you crack it open, you sit your ass on the couch, and you start reading and looking at all the artwork and all the little things in this package while you're having your beer and listening to this record in your living room on real speakers. Well, my mental exercise for anyone who's listening is when the hell have you ever done that with an mp3?

Chris Kling: 24:13

That's a good one

Eric Boulanger: 24:14

I'm pretty certain of what the question the answer is gonna be. And so when people say that it's a superior sounding format, if you really want to go down this road, is if you go through all that trouble, just to enjoy the record because it's experienced based versus convenience based. Of course, it's going to sound better because you're in a listening mode already. You want to listen to something whenever you listen to an mp3. I mean, it's typically when people are going jogging before work and thinking about like their report that they have to give to their boss and whether or not they're getting fired and want to commit suicide. Like you can see how there might be a little bit of difference In listenership to one format versus the other. But it's because the vinyl record demands, like the experience we want out of music is what the vinyl records strengths are, Are its biggest downfalls. All of that. You can't play it in the car, you can't go jogging with it, you've got to take care of it. There's no skipping around. Yeah, you have to get off the couch to flip the side. Like it forces you to have the experience that we wanted in the first place. And it delivers. And that's what everyone's responding to.

Chris Kling: 25:37

Yeah. But I mean, do you think that this concept, actually that you would just talk about, you know, the experience, the conscious listening experience? Do you think that this is kind of a phenomenon that is non mainstream, and just goes to like, for instance, if I listen to my mom, when she refers to the situations, when she got the new Beatles single, or whatever it was, like, there wa excitement, Joy there, you know they were meeting up wit friends and listening to tha record, it was like the thing t happen. right now if a new sing e comes out, and you're taking a dump on the toilet, and you' e flipping through Instagram, y u know, that'

Eric Boulanger: 26:17

that's rather accurate.

Chris Kling: 26:19

Yeah. And so that whole thing? Is this a very non mainstream way of consuming music? Or do you think that this consciousness will come back in the mainstream of music consumption?

Eric Boulanger: 26:33

Well, you know, I've my take on it is, I think more people have to be aware of where we're at right now and why we're at. And I fully expect that vinyl will be going away for good at some point in the future, whatever it may be that we figure out that it's more important to have an experience versus selling a format. Because the second, we figure out how to have that same sort of experience with however you deliver the music is going to be the final nail in the coffin for vinyl. Because I mean, why do you want to go through all this crap, the manufacturing the shipping? And, you know, I'm assuming most musician listeners won't even know the the struggle that we go through in just getting it to the duplication point. Because guess what, it's over 100 years old invention, like things go wrong all the time. And it's certainly in today's age, like maybe if it was in the 70s. This wasn't a problem because it was expected. Everyone there. There were so many plants, there were so many planting shops, there were so many mastering studios, and it was like, Okay, well, we got to do new parts, whatever it happens. Nowadays, the expectation is that everything goes perfectly and everything goes fast and right on schedule. And it's because it mimics what you can do with digital, just with the digital release. I mean, the expectation that we have with vinyl is as absurd if not more then producing CD, which at least has a manufacturing process to it. Yeah. And it's like, Guys, come on this, this is not like uploading a file. This is manufacturing and copying an analog format that was invented over 100 years ago, like, as good as we aren't as professional as we are, you know, shits gonna happen. you know, the humidity might just be a little bit more than expected. My point is, I think we need to focus more on delivering that experience, because unequivocally, that's what we all want. . And the day that we can do that, in different technology, different format, will be the day that I will be very happy to stop cutting records.

Chris Kling: 29:00

All right, that's a good word. And just that we get this done, I have collected a few quotes that I got from the internet. And you can either have a longer answer or also simply say, That's Bs, or That's right. That's wrong. That's right. That's wrong. Are you ready? The first statement, actually, you kind of already took a take on that one, but I'm gonna make it clear again. So the first statement is vinyl sounds better than digital?

Eric Boulanger: 29:30

Well, yeah, sometimes it depends on what digital and what vinyl. I mean, first and foremost, a lot of the craze. We already got into the the main reason why subjectively people are going to, of course, prefer vinyl. And that's because you're in a listening mode. It's a better experience. Yeah, but you know, there's few places on earth where you actually can do things properly. Number one, like my studio, if you're to compare the test pressing Have a record against the high resolution master that I made specifically for it. That was was feeding the lady and made that record. You know, engineering wise, it's not better. It's more like what I was steering, I was steering that ship with that Master, to yield the best sounding record. Now the other facet of that is for the same record on the release, I might be doing things differently. So it's going to be a subjective choice between people does the digital sound better or the vinyl, but they're technically two different masters. And also, very typically, vinyl was done last, you know, you don't want to be cutting a million parts or, you know, no one's these days or going to a mastering studio, me doing my work in the queue, and then taking a reference lacquer home to say yep, that's the sound I want. Yeah. So because of that vinyl is coming As the last step, the first thing, the digital references are approved, you know, just the sound, the artistic, what I do to record is approved, then we move into the vinyl stuff. And that's taking what I did and formatting it as best, especially if the mixes or whatever coming in were from higher sample rates and whatnot, or, you know, high resolution, and I start printing masters that will end up feeding the lave in a way that I think it's going to come out better. So now the other question is, I mean, I'm human to that there's plenty of times where maybe in that process, I'm making things even that much better, just because I'm doing it a second time or something like that. So, you know, it's not a fair comparison. The only way you can make that comparison is if you have like, what one microphone, and an A to D and a layth. Multed together and recording the same thing. And you're a being everything. And I'm pretty sure what people do to make that comment at home are not making that experiment,

Chris Kling: 32:15

I guess. So. Yeah. Maybe we could further elaborate that on the second statement, which would be vinyl just sounds more warm.

Eric Boulanger: 32:26

In terms of warm, actually, it's at least the one scientific reason behind all of this. Because it starts with where you're playing it. Literally every single thing to do with a vinyl record is to the demise of the higher frequencies, the top end. You know, they're harder to recreate, they're moving faster, your needle has to move faster. So the number one source of problem is the turntable, you play it on. How worn out is that needle or that cartridge? If it can't keep up, it's not going to represent those high frequencies as much. But the low frequencies no problem. Big nice waves. It's like great. Number two, the vinyl itself, how many times have you played it, anything you do to wear down that record is going to affect the high frequency more, because there's smaller, higher energy waves. So And literally, if you take care of your record, the only way that your record wears down is literally playing it, it's literally the physical friction of the needle, wiping through that groove. And, you know, just like a nail on a chalkboard, sorry for that visual, but, you know, every single time even though it's a very small needle, and it's not that much pressure, every time it goes through, it's gonna take some little bit of vinyl with it right you know, that's even some of the dust that you have to take off of it. Yeah, that's how the vinyl wears down. totally natural. Then on the cutting side is is dramatic aspect of this and the one that's not variable because obviously, you can play it on different turntables you can have different copies of vinyl, but it only comes from one source and the vast majority of cutting amps and cutting systems don't like to push that top end because it it moves everything into distortion, and it's not pleasant. So many styles of lathes and cutting amps, the engineers will opt to literally on purpose darken the record just to stay out of that distortion range. And engineeringly if that's a word, make the vinyl sound warm and warm meaning having that lack of brilliance that lack of top end, anything past that is just a decision. So that doesn't count.

Chris Kling: 35:07

All right, I think we answered that one really nicely. So the next one is, if your record or your masters produce digitally doesn't make any sense to make it analog again, because it was digital, you read that a lot on the internet.

Eric Boulanger: 35:22

Well, I mean, yeah, I'm pretty sure the same person probably was like, Oh, well, what does that person only listen to records that are made from analog tape or have a tape machine in his house? I'm sure he has a CD or will listen to high res masters can't that came off a tape? Like, that's not even a question. It's just, you know, this is like a puritanical statement where like things should remain in its original form, when 99.9% of anything that's ever been done, never stays in its original form. Because you have to get it somewhere as well. And the fact of the matter is, the one thing along the lines of puritanical that does, kind of aggravate me, I'll give you one example, which actually has nothing to do with analog. But very often, we have pop record gets recorded at 44.1, so the lower sample rates, you know, that's how they produced it. That's how they recorded everything. They made like 100 tracks that goes to the mixer, the mixer is using some analog gear or whatever they're doing, but they come up with a mix that set 96 K, now a high resolution format, that's what I get. Now, I have to make a 44.1 to go out to the vast majority of distributors, of course. But then the label then asked me, oh, would you please supply a high resolution, I won't get into it too much further. But for me, if I'm making a high resolution, I don't care how it comes in. If I'm manipulating it, I might as well print it at the highest that I can, like, 192 or something. I'm not going to go down that road for this conversation. But, you know, very often what we have to do is match what comes in the door. Because DSPs the distributors like HD tracks have notoriously put everything through spectrum analyzers, you know, I don't fault them necessarily, because especially early on, there were plenty of labels that either on purpose, but mainly out of negligence and not understanding what upsample CDs to sell on HD tracks. They're like, Oh, well, now it's 96. So we're gonna send it and so that made HD tracks have to go and analyze every single thing. They're like, no, sorry, this is up sampled, we can't sell it. You know, that was the original purpose. It's gotten a little bit out of hand these days with the high res things. Because in the instance, that I just said, you know, someone mixes, records everything in 44, then they mix it at 96. And I even master it at 96. that spectrum analyzer, I mean, it's gonna look a little bit different. There's, there is some stuff up there, but and I don't want to get into the scientific qualms of all this. But the fact of the matter is, it's primarily going to kind of look like it's upsampled. So we've run into problems where the high res distributors don't want to call it that. And to answer the question about this puritanical stuff, the one easy way around all of this bowl, just like what we've been asking, if you had credits and artwork and stuff like that, you could just say, hey, it was recorded at 44.1, it was mixed at 96. And then Eric decided to master it at 384, for whatever reason, and that's what you're buying. And you don't have to agree with any of that. You can go on gearslutz all you want and bitch at me and make death threats. I don't care at all. But the fact of the matter is like, you wouldn't have to have all this system in place for like double checking things if like, you just were able to say what it was. That's it. You don't like it? Fine. Don't buy it. See what I care.

Chris Kling: 39:23

Thank you. I have another potentially provoking one, Eric.

Eric Boulanger: 39:28

Oh, you're you're good at this.

Chris Kling: 39:29

Oh, yeah. No, Google is good at this. You don't have to do much to get these quotes. Trust me.

Eric Boulanger: 39:35

Thank God, you didn't go on Facebook.

Chris Kling: 39:39

All right, here we go. vinyl is not going to go away because it's the closest to the perfect device. Yes, it said device, the perfect device for listening to music.

Eric Boulanger: 39:49

What the hell are they even talking about? Yeah, I'm sure this person like lives in a fantasy world of steampunk to like You know, the bird wing is the perfect device for going into orbit to like, skies if fucking idiot. The the perfect device for recreating music what you think there's anything more representative of sound and audio by a disk spinning on a platter being picked up by a needle that's wiggling around. And in the early days hitting a diaphragm and going through a horn to amplify, like a resonant frequency or electronics like oh, yeah, that has everything to do with recreating sound perfectly and appoint source. Like I'm sure this guy has really studied the wave equation, like none other. I'd love to see his math background on this one like vinyl digital off the ship. It's all just different, like get over it people. Yes, everything's different. But the one thing that all these format and everything has in common is the pursuit of trying to make things perfect. You know, I had an interesting thought the other day with I don't know, maybe it was we cracked too many beers open at the studio. But we were dealing with something that was comparing headphones to loudspeakers, right? And in a perfect world, like, if you could have a set of headphones, and sit in front of a pair of loudspeakers. And somehow magically, exactly the same sound waves produced by both would enter your ear canals. And your brain would get the exact same signal from either the headphones or the loudspeakers. What's the one thing that's still different about the two? The difference with the loudspeakers is it's also vibrating your nuts. Like they're louder the sound is hitting you. And that has everything to do with how you experience music as well. I mean, actually, the people who listened to music quietly, especially in their car, they must be serial killers. Like, those people are weird. If you don't turn up music that you like, and you want to have like a moment, especially when no one's looking. And that's not loud, there is something wrong. And it's because you feel it. And so this, this whole conversation also was because of like those articles coming out about Elon Musk's, like, brain chip, you know. And so we were thinking about, oh, you know, one of these days, we're not gonna have headphones or loudspeakers, we're gonna just have chips that, oh, I want to listen to this. And it like, your brain hears it or whatever. I mean, obviously, we're going off on a tangent here. But like, the other important thing is, if that were the possibility, like we'd have to trick our brain into thinking we're feeling it too, because that's the whole experience.

Chris Kling: 42:58

Exactly. I you know, it I mean, we have the term it moves you emotionally. And if you take that literally,

Eric Boulanger: 43:04

yeah, because it literally is moving you to like, yeah, scientifically,

Chris Kling: 43:11

I have two or actually one, which is kind of a little bit more techie. Let's go a little bit into detail. Because I get asked this special question by artists that I'm working with as a producer or mixing engineer a lot. And this is regarding the mastering for vinyl. So there's this statement, vinyl masters need to be mono in low frequencies and vinyls need a special extra mastering which is a part from the mastering from wave. Go.

Eric Boulanger: 43:45

Yeah, okay. So very, very simply put, anyone who's reading about this. Anyone who's trying to figure this out anyone who's asking this? Am I allowed to curse now? You're a cheap ass motherfucker. That's the answer. Anyone who's going through this, it's because you don't want to spend money on your product. It's very simple. The reason why there's people like us around like me, as a mastering engineer know how to cut is this is not your problem. Like this is what I specialize in. And you know what? Yes, there are times when you have to do that. Yes, these are tools in our handbag, but the thought that you would be preemptively doing this without ever cutting a record in your life. Are you mental? No, don't go to a pressing plant that has like some intern who just figured out how to press the button is like good doesn't cut. You got to pre pre do all this. So you know, you can press your 200 records for $30 and then make this a refund. flexion on the records that inspire good to do this in the first place, no, spend some damn money hire someone like me who knows what they're doing. And if the mix really does have problems like that, I'll give you a perfect example in a second. But the point is, it's also my job to interface with a mixer like Chris, where it's like, Hey, we need to do something like this for the vinyl release. And I think it's going to be better if we do this, or at least try it. And then you're going to have a professional mixer and a professional mastering engineer pulling this off better than anyone could have ever dreamt. And my example for exactly this is vinyls, Achilles heel. vinyls Achilles heel is sibilance. And the reason for it is for those who are unfamiliar, it's primarily the RA curve, which is it's one week cut onto a lacquer in an effort for signal to noise ratio, a distortion ratio, which I won't talk about, and also saving space physical space. Because you have to realize on a vinyl record, the bigger the sound, the bigger the squiggle, and the bigger the squiggle, the more space you take up, right. But you still only have a 12 inch disks. So the more space you take, the less time on the side, you'll be able to record. So the idea is to take up less space, and won't get into it. low frequencies take up more space than higher frequencies. So we have this curve, that gets into this assertion thing, but constant velocity, which gives yields roughly saving a lot of space on the desk. So what we're doing with this pre emphasis curve, the RA curve, which is the standard, roughly at the lowest frequencies, like 20 hertz, you're reducing the level by 20 db. And when you move all the way up to the highest of frequencies, like let's say 20 K, roughly, you're boosting by 20 db. So that's a whole 40 db, top to bottom difference. And when you put that record now on your record player, if you ever wondered why you have to use a phono amp, why it's called phono, it's because a you have to amplify the signal. Yeah, it's kind of like a microphone. But also, you have to have the de emphasis curve. So the inverse of that array, so now you're attenuating, the top by roughly 20. And you're boosting the bottom by roughly 20 db. And what comes out your line amp to your speakers, is now what was put into the cutter in the first place. So the reason why sibilance is a problem is of course, sibilance only exists in the high frequency area. And now when we're cutting, we're boosting those frequencies, like around seven K, I mean, it's around plus 10, maybe more depending on the system. When you're playing it back, forget the electronics, that needle on your turntable. Now, when you put it down on the record, and that high frequency energy that's very energetic, that's boosted an additional 10 to 15 Db because of this curve, that needle has to wiggle 10 Db more. And that's a lot of energy. And that's a lot of speed. And the main thing with the distortion to put it in layman's turn is most needles can't keep up with that. So it starts bouncing around. It's like throwing a hot dog through a hallway, you know.

Chris Kling: 49:02

That's a good image.

Eric Boulanger: 49:04

Well, I know this term is being used for another reason. So I hope our listeners don't have too much of a stroke. But you know, the fact of the matter is, it can't keep up with all that energy. So the resulting sound is distortion and distortion comes on the playback end for the most part, but anyway sibilance is the Achilles heel. Those sounds will distort any vinyl record and on digital. You might not even notice it.

Chris Kling: 49:37

I do have one more vinyl question. We had this in our last phone call as well. And what confused me when I did the first record that gone to vinyl. I was also lost and you know because there's so many tools that have to be manufactured to do vinyl right? You have first of all the master copy. Then you have the mother, the stampers, then you have the pressing plant as the systems that you know and the the machines that go into all that, you know what I'm talking about? If so many aspects, I just touched a few. But what do you think if you could name one or two, which is the most crucial one to the quality of the finished vinyl?

Eric Boulanger: 50:23

Oh, well, I promise you it's not me being biased, but it's definitely it's, it's the mastering engineer and the the master cut, unequivocally. I mean, it's the first one. It's what everything's molded from, it's the the whole, everything that comes after the original lacquer cut is in an effort to maintain what the original cut did. So I mean, that part's just obvious, like, you know, the best plating on the planet, and the best pressing plant on the planet, would be magically able to create all these molds from this original lacquer, and create a vinyl record that, like molecularly, somehow is exactly the same. That's the idea. And in fact, I'll give you I'll try to make a short story. But it was another thing that Doug was famous for here in California, and throughout the United States, because being such a new industry being mastering, one of the big things was, he got into trouble with the California Tax Board with sales tax, because they were considering since it you know, the industry, mastering never existed before him. He got into trouble because they were considering what he was doing as a form of manufacturing. So you know, and with manufacturing, you're starting a product. So that's when taxes sales tax is supposed to kick in right, per unit. And his argument was what mastering does, it's an artistic service. And manufacturing starts. The second that lacquer leaves the mastering studio, everything after mastering, will be considered manufacturing. Because there's no longer an opportunity to add, subtract, or do anything differently with it. Right? Like you're just molding the part. We have the capability of changing it. Yeah. So that's why we're service and after us is manufacturing. You know, you don't hear too many success stories when people go to court, especially when they go against the government and tax boards. But Doug won that case. And it really did was the thing that really separated and started the mastering industry. I mean, he invented it, and then be he goes to bat with that, because he was in the position to be the first. And the Tax Board agreed with him. They're like, yeah, that's not manufacturing. If you can change it, then it's the same thing as every step that came before it. So ever since then, that's why we don't pay, you know, like the record we did together. That's why you're not paying sales tax for what I did. Because it's a service. I mean, I don't know if it's different in different countries, but in the United States service, like you know, my physical creativity, or what I do is non sales, taxable.

Chris Kling: 53:30

That's actually a good transition away from vinyl, because in the first place, you were a mastering engineer. I mean, it's a big topic, right? And many people have discussed about the myth and the black box and sorcery what so ever, right? But we don't want to get into that it has been further elaborated by so many people before, but how do you define your job as a mastering engineer?

Eric Boulanger: 53:56

That is so easily answered And so easily misunderstood, especially if you read gearslutz every single day, but a mastering engineer first and foremost to understand concerning what we do and especially concerning the people who think it's like black magic, or we have fairy dust, right? Because mind you there's been many times completely accomplished mixers and everything and I barely do shit to their mix, and they'll call back and be like, How the hell did you make it sound like that? And I'm like, You do realize like you've done like, everything changed like a half DB off at like 40 or something, you know, like, There's been situations like that. But the fact of the matter about fairy dust black magic, guess what people, doesn't exist. Us mastering engineers have the exact same tools as any other studio, any other engineer. an EQ is an EQ. A compressor is the compressor. And an amp is an amp, like a reverb, the reverb, there's, these are, you know, our tool bags, and this is still physics, we have all of it. In fact, nine times out of 10, I bet you some of the equipment in my studio might be the same of that as someone else. Now, equipment wise, I will say that as a mastering engineer, we get to be a little bit more specific about the upkeep and detailed interconnections of our stereo gear. Because unlike, let's say, a recording studio or a mixer studio, we only have two channels, we don't have like 5000. Like, you know, it's a lot easier to be very detailed about the upkeep and maintenance and everything and how everything goes together when you're only dealing with, let's say, two channels. And you know, the importance of that also is because, you know, if my left channel for a stereo release, were to be compromised. That means literally 50% of an album would be compromised. So, you know, that's also why there's an onus on us to be a little bit more vigilant. But in deference to any other studio or mixer, it's far easier to be vigilant because we're dealing with so less channel past, neither here nor there. The point is, the gear is the same. We use the same shit period. Yeah. Why is it that people think there's black magic and fairy dust, it's because everyone doesn't want to believe that it's really this easy. So if in a typical band doing an album, 10 track album, something like that your stereotypical album, a recording engineer, if there was one working with them the whole time? Let's say it took them six months to do everything, make all the tracks and then from there, they send it to a mixer. And to be fair, let's say the mixer takes about a month to mix the entire album and make everything perfect with all the effects and everything and everyone approves, then it comes to me. I do one of these albums each day. And so the black magic and the thing that you're paying for when you're coming in mastering his perspective, and the reason why people don't think that this is even possible that we must have some like blackbox machine or something and why people are so surprised when everything sounds so great is it's too simple to comprehend. But it's simply perspective. That's it. When I do one of these a day I'm exposed to so much versus any other step along the way. Yeah, in any other capacity, you're focused on things that no one else, including a listener would be, um, you know, the benefit of being a mastering engineer. And actually the most fun part is I'm literally officially the first listener, the first fan of that album. Yeah. And the only thing that differentiates me from from me and the first person to pick up that album from the store is I can change things, and you have to pay me

Chris Kling: 58:40

it takes so much pressure off me, I can say this as a producer who very regularily mixes my own productions, then that's already a lot to do, and a lot of pressure and a lot of decisions and a lot of you know, time to get lost along the way lose your objectivity and your freshness.

Eric Boulanger: 58:58

Yeah, and, you know, I think it's important to talk about, especially with our musician, friends, budgets and whatnot, is specifically in today's distribution in technology and the ease in which that you can get a record out, versus, you know, imagine if you made the same record in the 70s. You'd need amazing investment. Just to get the records out and into people's hands. Now, you literally can make a record and a world class one from your bedroom and distribute it yourself. And that's it. So, you know, when it comes to budgets and all of these things, it's I think we've passed the point of any of them making sense. But the biggest point about doing any of this is, you know, specifically if you're mixing or for the engineers out there, you know, someone's hired and it's like, oh, do we need mastering? Well, you know, you could say the same of mixing. It's like, well, do we need mixing like, where do you draw that line? And the fact of the matter is For everyone, the concept of just doing the best for the project should be the only focus. And now, I fully understand, as does everyone that money does not grow on trees. But the projects that are easiest are the ones that are most realistic. You know, there's, there's many times when people will, for a project that no one wants to do anything with, they'll go to the nth degree. And then there's projects that are absolutely amazing, but they're scared about spending one cent. And, you know, everyone's so scared of calling it the music business. you know, every because the weird thing about music is, I swear, it must be something that's in our DNA. You know, you don't have to speak a language. You don't need lyrics, like you hear music, every single human being out of the womb, no matter where you're born, immediately can respond to music, in some way, shape, or form, and even solicit the emotion that comes out of it. Like, that's the beauty of it. And because of it, it's very personal to each and every one of us. Like, I mean, the thing that's really weird about music is like, you can write a song, you can record it, it can be a hit record, is your song, it could you could be talking about, you know, your father died. That's the purpose of the song and then motion that you put into recording and everything. And you could meet someone from the other side of the planet who doesn't even speak your language. And it could mean something even more to them.

Chris Kling: 1:01:50

Yes,

Eric Boulanger: 1:01:50

you know, so this is the fire we're playing with with music. And so I think the reason why people don't like to talk about this being a business is because it denigrates it to a certain extreme, because it's like, oh, well, you know, if you monetize it, then, you know, you're trying to tell me what it means to me. Because, you know, I mean, literally, music is something that's like, doesn't matter what it is, you hear, it's in your soul. And when someone's like, Oh, no, I want five bucks, you're gonna get offended. It's like a human right thing at that point, you know?

Chris Kling: 1:02:26

Yeah, that's, that's an interesting point You're bringingt up

Eric Boulanger: 1:02:29

And yeah, well, it's the elephant in the room. And the fact of the matter is, especially amongst professionals, we have to realize this, obviously, because I mean, this is how I put food on the table. And I'm lucky enough to do so. I love every second. I mean, it's ridiculous. So I'm no one to complain. But at the same extent, the business has to exist, or none of this is going to happen, you know, you're not going to have that access to the artists you want to hear, you're not going to have that access to the records and everything so that, you know,

Chris Kling: 1:03:07

Isn't it ironic that this is easier than ever, actually, to access to the artists but I find it more hard to find out what you want, what you actually want, because everybody's, I feel like screaming at you

Eric Boulanger: 1:03:19

was and the other thing is, you know, the thing that I think people also forget about is like what you think the artists themselves, you know, like your icons and everything, what you think they're sitting at home, not paying attention to anything else are not listening to music or, or technology themselves, like, the whole ethos is having an effect on everyone. So that's where the business end of things comes into play. The acceptance of there being a business is, it's really important, because if you're that jaded about making this a business in the first place, the problem about it, it will affect your music, not at all, nothing will affect your music, but what it'll affect is your reach. And you know, the other thing is, it's kind of a feedback loop to is, you know, the more reach you get to have, the more experiences you get to have and the more that goes into your music, it's I mean, that's just life. It's beautiful. That's what we all live for. So

Chris Kling: 1:04:26

so well, actually, we we need the ability to make this full time to make it in the way that we want it to be and to be good at it. Is that way of saying?

Eric Boulanger: 1:04:36

Well, not exactly that I think there's just a lot of stigmas with a lot of terms. And particularly because music is this magical thing that no one can explain why it's in our DNA that we like to make these ultimatums or try to put things on paper but I mean, for instance, like what you just were saying was, what's the price problem with the guy who makes a record in his bedroom, never mixes it with a professional or masters, it puts it out on the web, and he's got a following of 500 people. And he's happy with that little bit of income and keeps doing it. And might decide, you know, continue with his gardening job. I don't know, like. That's the beauty of all of this, but at some extent, to take things further involves business. And then and the other thing about businesses, that's just involving other people. So I think a lot of the neck immediate negative conductivity with terminology, or what we we view in this industry of music, is the weirdness of music, because it's something that's so personal to all this.

Chris Kling: 1:05:49

Yeah. I mean, what you're saying is that we need the business part of it. But in particular, in recorded music, it has gotten quite hard to make a decent earning from it. Right, regarding, you know, you know, all the debate about Spotify and stuff like that. Do you fear that the whole industry might degrade or change?

Eric Boulanger: 1:06:14

No, no, no, no, but like, the thing I'm pointing out with this discussion, and I didn't make explicit is when you say that it's becoming harder to make a decent living from recording, you have to realize that that statement, it's neither right nor wrong, it's just right in the middle. Because what's happened in modern age is now producing and recording records. And certainly distributing them is becoming easier and easier every single day. Like, yes, it's nowhere near what it was. Let's go back to like the 70s, which was the golden age for vinyl distribution, what you think if you were in your bedroom, and you made a similar record, you'd be able to afford getting time on a pressing plant, while Pink Floyd is trying to come out. And then you think you would be able to go around the stores and stock that in shelves, and have people buy it and make a decent living off of it. So the concept of making a decent living off of recording, it's actually a good thing, because it's where we've come. But it's bullshit, because you have to realize that beforehand, there were only what throughout, let's say, the US at any given time, in the 70s, any given year, what 100 artists that would be able to put food on the table, because they're selling records, I would very much so argue that right now, in 2020, there are 10s of thousands who can put a cup of ramen noodles on the table, but it's shifted to the fact that you're talking about, it used to be a small club, and that was technically because of the technological division. Now, technology has given us this. And so now we've gotten to a point where we've got technology, and we're being exposed to artists and people and talent that would have never been exposed to otherwise. Mm hmm. And even there's, there's a method of monetizing that to the extent that, you know, it could be their only career. So I would bet you if you were to, to analyze, the artists have, certainly before the internet, like the artists of the vinyl days, and their take, versus every single artist, even if they make $1 today, or whatever, on one song, what's happening now? I would bet you it's gonna. The problem is, technology has let it flourish. So there's way more people. And it's evolved literally, to the extent that people are annoyed at the fact that you can't make a living from this. Because it's only a magnifying glass, on the fact that there's so much talent out there that would have in no other way shape or form ever been found.

Chris Kling: 1:09:21

So it's about cutting through the noise, if you will?

Eric Boulanger: 1:09:24

It's always been about that. But like the fact of the matter is our signal to noise ratio has gotten off. Right, because

Chris Kling: 1:09:33

lack of gatekeepers.

Eric Boulanger: 1:09:35

Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just it's a different time. I really don't think there's in terms of the professionals out there, I don't think anything's changed. If anything's changed, I think it's more likely that what most people view as success is being a pop star. That's not success. Sorry. That is success. I'm saying that's not the only success. I've worked with plenty of artists, most people have never heard of, but they have a, like a cult following. And how the hell they got that? I don't know. Hmm. I also don't care, but they're constantly coming in with new records. They sell like none other. And that's all they do. And my point is, I don't think that could exist back in the 70s.

Chris Kling: 1:10:23

That's a really valid point to say that it hasn't got all to waste. But, I mean, I definitely what we can all agree on is it has always been hard to be heard by a broad mass of people. I'm not talking about the option of being heard. I meant being heard and being well known, you know? Sure. I think that's the same in the 70s as it is today.

Eric Boulanger: 1:10:47

Well, that's that alone is subjective to just like everything else we've been talking about, but I'm afraid Yes. You know, the other thing that's, I'm glad I'm speaking on a German podcast to like, actually, what one of the most interesting things I've been noticing too. Okay, so Coronavirus, aside, maybe bad timing with this exact statement. But certainly the German culture of live concerts. I mean, it's like the mecca of bands, especially local bands here. In this country. A lot of clients from all over the world. I mean, like, Germany, like your culture, really values that live concert stage. There are so many tours, like so many of my clients all toured Germany without fail and have great experiences because of it and continue returning. I mean, people that you'd probably never hear of otherwise, but they have great venues great everything. I mean,

Chris Kling: 1:11:53

is that so different from Spain or France or countries like that?

Eric Boulanger: 1:11:59

Okay, well, obviously, it's no different from touring in any other country, but like it definitely, from my experience. Many of my clients, like Germany is a huge aspect of the only reason why they're touring in Europe in the first place. Hmm. unquestionably, wow. And it's just, yeah, and it boils down to like a cultural thing. And so, you know, obviously, you know, the, these are the things that that are really interesting. And especially for American groups, touring in Germany and having a falling in generally, a obviously, the internet and technology has played into an effect where they have that following in place. And then they like what you think if it was the 1960s, that you were going to hop on a flight to Frankfurt and, you know, be there in 10 hours and sleep in a lie flat bed and wake up and do a concert the next day and, you know, pick up your paycheck and yeah, continue to next town? No, like, you'd be in an unpressured not pressurized. dole turboprop stopping in multiple locations in Canada, Iceland, England, and then finally getting to Germany with your eyes hanging out of your head, and then having to rent all of your gear because that was too much weight, you know, like,

Chris Kling: 1:13:29

yeah, so it gotten so much easier. Yeah, we have to go towards the end of this episode. But I would have like, nice last question. That's going back to the topic of mastering, especially so we were talking about the future and how things are evolving. So I would like to know, what is your take on the question? How will mastering evolve, I mean, we have touched vinyl, which you said is kind of a format, which quote, you were happy with giving it up again, until anybody comes up with an opportunity to get the same experience from a different medium, unquote. You know, it's vinyl or it is CD or mp3. It's at the end of the day, it's just like a music that's coming out of two speakers, right. So regarding mastering, well, will this lead us is there like is everything achieved in the stereo format at some point in history? And if yes, is there the option or do you see the option at some point in time that there will be machines replacing something?

Eric Boulanger: 1:14:40

We discussed some of the prime things but I can answer this question unequivocally with my personal thrill. And having become a mastering engineer and for those listening. Have you know that at no point in time in my life, did I ever Think I would become a mastering engineer. Actually, when I was at Capitol one thing I realized with my stay there, we were doing a lot of string sec. for recording, there were numerous string sections being recorded. And that was the day that the time I really realized that there was no way in hell, I wanted to be a recording engineer anymore. Because, you know, the, the fun part about recording for me is, it's all in the setup. You know, you set something up, and you get that sound. I mean, I still love that aspect of it. But then once the musicians come in, he sit in the control room, you're just pressing record. And particularly when now all these great string sections were coming in to record on whatever I was experiencing. At the time. I was there literally the one pressing record on Pro Tools, and wanting to hang myself, because I was like, I'd rather be in the room right now. Like all the funds gone. And then, you know, I became closer with the girl was mentoring me. And, you know, sitting in on his mixes with both he and Steve genomic and mixing unequivocally for for engineering is the most creative part of the whole process. It's where you can do the most, and certainly the most fun true. And the other thing about it was, I didn't have to look at a string section. And wish I was there. So in my head, I was always going to be a mixer. The way I got into mastering was quite simply, I finished up school, I move back out to LA. And then I really needed a real job you know, that paid not an internship. And so I was helping me with that. Yeah. And in, in doing so, Doug sacks was looking for an assistant, of course, l sending everything to him. He knew about this. And he's like Eric called Doug sax right now I called him and he's like, come up and interview. I mean, it was literally the same day. And very simply, when al Schmidt tells you to go see Doug sax, and Doug sax, picks up the phone and says, Come interview with me. If you're not getting in a car, then you should just quit.

Chris Kling: 1:17:17

I get it. Yeah.

Eric Boulanger: 1:17:19

So yeah. So I did, he hired me on the spot. And I thought to myself, I'm like, Well, I guess I'm mastering now.

Chris Kling: 1:17:27

One additional question on that spot. I mean, actually, I haven't heard of a mastering engineer who haven't gone through at least most, if not all of the stations like recording and mixing before he went to mastering and there's the word master in the word of mastering, do you think it's hundred percent necessary that you do that to get a good mastering engineer to know how it is to record to be a musician and to do a mix?

Eric Boulanger: 1:17:58

my form of answering is, I know plenty of people who have not gone through that route. They've gone straight to just doing mastering Okay, and, and a number of those who have been unsuccessful. I don't know if this is the statement or not. For me personally. For me, personally, I could not be the mastering engineer I am without my experience. And number one of which is being a musician. Number one. And that's kind of like what we were talking about me saying, us being called engineers is stupid. Like, we're not engineers. We're musicians. Yeah, that's, and that's the crazy part. And it's with technology. And you know, a lot of a lot of programs and everything it I feel like it's a little bit disingenuous to, to promise that, oh, if you learn the software, something you can be in the music industry and be an engineer, it's like, no, like, the reason why you're here is because you're a musician, and you get it. And like, you know, the The point is the same feeling I get with, you know, if I'm about to play something, and plant a note on my violin, I'm about to play about to put my bow down on the string and produce a note, that same feeling that's like that. Electricity going through my arm into my hand into my finger, right before you play with that downbeat is the same exact feeling when I turn around and I flip a switch of knob on my console because I want to change the sound of what's coming out of my speaker. And so for me personally, I could not be doing what I'm doing without my musical background period. Is that the same for everyone? Obviously not. Because there are many colleagues of mine who have nowhere near that experience, who I respect Highlight. So I'm not about to go down that line of how you should go about doing something. But even those colleagues who I respect and do that type of work, they speak in music.

Chris Kling: 1:20:15

Maybe just as a as a last statement, but is everything achieved in the stereo format sonically? or will there be at a certain point in the near future, in terms of mastering, I'm not talking about music genres or anything, right? It's just like in the terms of technology. And

Eric Boulanger: 1:20:34

well, this is how I went down this line with what's exciting about being a mastering engineer. And I went down the line of how I didn't expect to be, but the exciting part about being a mastering engineer is or other point is being always on the precipice of pushing everything forward. And that's my favorite part about being able to be a prominent mastering engineer and work with companies like Apple, like when we did master for iTunes, that's one big example and numerous others and going into the future. To answer your questions directly about stereo versus anything else, right now. I mean, this is strictly from an engineering side, we only have two years, right? So mathematically, an engineering wise, like there's got to be a way that we can trick the ears into anything that we would experience any other way. I mean, that's, that's obvious. Mm hmm. So the fact of multi channel formats and whatnot, you know, in 200 years, are those going to be around? If you wanted me to take a bet? I'd say no. Because we're probably going to be doing like implants and shit like that. But, you know, the fact of the matter is with the format's we have the beauty of being a mastering engineers being able to steer the ship, with our perspective, with anything going forward. And, you know, I'll leave this with one of the greatest misconceptions specifically are revolving around surround, and they'll have a visitor and they're like, oh, sit here in the center. It's the sweet spot. Everyone's like, Oh, you've got to set everything up, right? Like, you have to be a rich person with like, setting up your surround system with some like fucking AV company that charges $5 million. A second, yeah, to put in shitty speakers in your walls, but it looks cool. And you're like, Oh, I'm rich, and this must be the best. And everything's about sitting in the sweet spot when you're listening to surround record. And the fallacy here is, guess what people? When you listen to stereo, you also have to sit in the sweet spot. Like that does not change whatsoever. And so what, why is the reason between those things, and it's because it's all a facet of marketing, hype, and whatnot. And we really didn't get into the format artistically. Like the whole idea of surround was effect work. It's an echo from the movies. And when, even when albums were done just for surround, I mean, first of all, the vast majority of any surround record, it's all live concert, you've got everything that you would have done in stereo, and then they put up two shitty mics in the back of the stadium. And that's your rear channels. Like that's the majority of anything that's been released in surround. And you wonder why people are scratching their head about why they invested in it. And getting back to stereo, with stereo to listen to the mix, even on your home system, you should set up your left and right channels correctly. And you should be in the quote unquote, sweet spot. So listen to that accurately. There's no difference between that and surround. But there's the stigma. And the reason why no one thinks about that is because stereo has been around for so long. We've gotten so good at mixing things and balancing shit that when someone sets up a stereo system in their house, completely wrong. They like they have one speaker in the kitchen. And one speaker in the frat house, and everyone's drinking beer and they blast it. It still sounds great. But with surround, everyone thinks it's like this effect thing. So they try to make things fly around your head and all this crap that no one's interested in. Yeah, because you can't just play that record in frat house the same Yeah, if you mixed it with that same connotation, like you should be able to take all six speakers have a five one set setup. And a good mix. If you throw all six speakers into the DJ booth of a frat house, and they crank the volume, whatever the hell hits, all the people playing beer pong should sound like a solid mix. And you know, you could do it with a stereo mix. But you know, you couldn't do it with the surround, because everyone's too concerned about making it sound like something spectacular. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, I wish the mixes would view surround not as an ability to throw music around your head, like an effect, because no one cares about that. Mm hmm. They want to be emotionally touched by the music and the level. If you're using a surround format, the number one benefit that you have is you have four more channels, you literally have four more channels of headroom. So you know the the proverbial pop song, everyone lives for verse two, right? It's after the first course. And it's where all the instruments are in. everything settled, the vocals really out front, it sounds great. And you want to make it really loud. But like you have to pull it back because oh shit course. Chorus number two is coming up. And if we make the verse to sound too big, then when chorus two hits, it'll sound tiny, because it's like fitting a size 12 foot and the size 10 shoe. And so that's like what we manipulate as mastering engineers with level. But with surround sound, you could use two speakers, and you could have that verse as big as you wanted. And then when that chorus comes, guess what? You have four more. I wish more mixers would use the extra speakers as headroom as a concept. Versus Oh, there's the Hi Hat behind my head to the right. What do you fucking do?

Chris Kling: 1:27:10

Eric, thank you so much. I think this is a good closing sentence for this episode. First and foremost, I want to thank you about the tremendous amount of time that you took to record this with us on this very hot day in LA.

Eric Boulanger: 1:27:26

Well, thank you so much, Chris, for having me. This was a real treat. And on a hot day, I'd rather do nothing else. But definitely appreciate the time. And I hope anyone who's listening out there gets the most out of this. And if any of you are in LA please feel free to to contact us and you know, hopefully post COVID to all Yeah, of this craziness, when we're all able to travel. I'd love nothing more than people to reach out and us to make connections and whatnot. So great opportunity. And I'm grateful for being able to get to work with Chris just before this podcast on an album. Yeah. And so thank you so much.

Chris Kling: 1:28:16

Thank you, Eric.