Tape Talks - Podcast for the Recording Artist
Tape Talks - Podcast for the Recording Artist
The Art of Mastering: Talk with Zino Mikorey
Chris Kling talking with Zino Mikorey (Gold- and Platinum-awarded Mastering Enigneer - Nils Frahm, Thom Yorke, Annen May Kantereit)
After trying our best with defining the term Mastering, we covered questions relating stem-mastering, loudness, and AI-based services - and what all this has to do with anxiousness, fears, money and budget, managing expectations and mastering tracks for the eternity.
Tape Talks. The podcast for the the recording artist. Brought to you by Klangkantine Studios.
Chris Kling :Hello and welcome to a first episode of our podcast tape talks. Today I have a guest that is calling in from Berlin that I regularly work with already and his name is Zino Mikorey, and he's a mastering engineer. We are gonna talk about mastering alongside with other things, I suppose so Hello, Zino, Oh, by the way, I said Zino again, your name is Zino all right?
Zino Mikorey :Yes, but it doesn't matter. I'm good. Thank you. Good morning.
Chris Kling :Good morning.
Zino Mikorey :Thanks for having me.
Chris Kling :Yes, you You're very welcome. And I'm really glad you took your time this morning. Are you having a good sip of coffee?
Zino Mikorey :Yes I do. I already had a session this morning without coffee only with tea. And now I'm slowly getting into test mode with the coffee.
Chris Kling :That's really good. So let's go into fast mode I'm gonna just hop in and present you. So you're a mastering engineer we've been working together on some productions already over the last I don't know how many years was this 2 3 4 I can remember even But anyways, you're a Gold- and Platinum awarded mastering engineer and you had the pleasure of working with so many great artists they will be Nils, Frahm, Thom Yorke, Olafur Arnalds, the Kooks, Parcels, Metronomy and even recently with the German band called Annen May Kantereit. So and you also develop mastering plugins with Acustica Audio. And that's, I heard of one plugin. How was it called again, Zino?
Zino Mikorey :It's called Azure.
Chris Kling :Yes,
Zino Mikorey :yes,
Chris Kling :but I heard you've been working on some other stuff also recently?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, next we hope to be able to release something next year but it's really developing a plugin is a tedious very long process that Yeah, I don't know when we'll be able to release that the last one took two years. So probably next year is a bit too optimistic, but I hope we'll have a suite of plugins. I don't know how many yet. Couple ones, like a little like a sweet mastering suite. Let's see how it turns out.
Chris Kling :Is there anything else you can tell us? Is it like EQ compressor or is it just still top secret?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, we the question really is how the technology evolves because the technology has taken a huge step ever since we did the first plugin. But the question is, how intelligent we can make it how Aldo it can be talking about Release times and stuff like that. So I would love to have something that is a little like set and forget. But no, I mean set and forget never works, but at least into the direction of it. Okay, so we can be happy about something. I mean, I think later on we will talk in this episode also about some AI stuff. Maybe you can reveal some knowledge you acquired during the development of that plugin
Chris Kling :in this regard, so, but let's hop in and learn something about yourself. I see no, tell me. How did you get mastering engineer I mean, that's like a big title almost something one can have. And tell me a little bit about your story. How did you get there?
Zino Mikorey :I used to be just a musician. And then I started making music on the computer then wrote tons of songs then slowly went over to producing them for Producing to mixing and then from mixing to mastering. And in the beginning, I was rather sad to not get the mixes or not have all the possibilities I would have loved to have because as a mixer, you can still make moves like a producer regarding arrangement or maybe reprogramming or replaying a track that does work that is maybe most important. And so in the beginning I was rather sad about it and now I'm super happy to be only mastering but do you think it is necessary that you through lived all these different stations as producing, recording mixing? Is that necessary to be a good mastering engineer to really have worked in these domains? I guess so. The thing is, for me, maybe most mastering engineers they literally only do the mastering part of it. So they get a song. They do their thing and they send it back and I always tried To find the spot where the production or the song really needs help and that's maybe because I have worn so many different dresses or, or let's say I have so many ideas as a producer or mixer to maybe help the song even more. So for me mastering is more as a last step where you can still do everything. And if I think the snare needs help or if I think the arrangement or you know what it is, then maybe that helps. But I don't know there's surely some mastering engineers out there doing a great job that haven't been musician, producer blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at least it helps me to find out where the problem lies. And most of the time, it's not fixed with EQ or compression but with Yeah, arrangement or also, for example, if I find a problem in the song, I most of the time, I don't fix the problem. I just tell the mixer producer, whether problem lies and if you fix it earlier than on the two bus there is there are new opportunities or new space that is created and if I just go in and kind of fix the problem tonally then it's only fixed but there's nothing new has come out of this.
Chris Kling :And I mean having worked with you on quite some productions already I know that you kind of not have an amount of work you do always it's sometimes you do little and sometimes you feel it is necessary to do a lot so I that's something I really value that get me working with you over a long period also. But that brings us to the next thing maybe this is a good spot to maybe try to define because I get asked this questions a lot. For instance when I mix a track Hey, do we need mastering What does a mastering engineer actually do? You know, there's this conceptions or misconceptions of of mastering being like sorcery Blackmagic, high expectations versus low expectations? I mean, how the hell would you define mastering? Do you have kind of a out of the pocket mastering definition ready for us?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, I mean, the very end is the art of listening. And you you book a mastering engineer to listen to your production and mix as a as a new person that hasn't heard it, he doesn't have anything in it. So he doesn't need the vocal to be like this or doesn't need the drums to be like this. Everybody else at some point has something in it that they want to keep. And I don't need to keep anything. I hear it the first time. And it's really only about listening. Also, when I'm mastering I try to still stay in the position of the listener and not have the position in the position of the person Doing something to it? Because I still want to hear what I've done. Yeah, objectively, I guess. So. Yeah. It's it's the mastering engineer should be in the best sense a listener who has no no interest in the song being something that it's not.
Chris Kling :So you're not the one that wants to be heard, basically.
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, exactly. That's also why I'm why I've invested so much or built so many, so much gear, because I don't want to be there. I want to do what the song needs, but I don't want to be there. You know.
Chris Kling :Alright, so you're the visible guy in the background that wants to help as much as possible.
Zino Mikorey :I hope
Chris Kling :you hope
Zino Mikorey :The funny thing is, if you probably had it before, if you get something back if you get it master back, it never sounds like I've been there. And and you're going to go wow, this and that happened. Obviously, lots of stuffs happening but it's never done. You have the feeling that it's not yours anymore. But if you take 10 masters from different artists different mixers, and you put them on one CD and maybe level match them a bit, they would still work together. So a you're not really there there. But be there is some sort of signature or sound that I'm obviously going for that I need to say, Okay, this sounds Master, this is finished. Yeah. And maybe the other thing is the amount of records. So I've done so many records within the last year. So this is obviously crazy. But what I mean is that, since I'm doing so many records, I have this sort of idea how everything is at the moment how it sounds at the moment. Also, I'm always going we're always super active about how does music sound at the moment. How much low end Can I push how much top end Can I push Or how are vocals sitting at the moment? So obviously, I tried to make every record for eternity and not have too much fashion or dated sound on it. But still, if you listen back to something that's five years or 10 years old, there's way different low end wear different top end. And obviously, yeah, and need to have it sound modern.
Chris Kling :Yeah, but still, I must say, I mean, I think that's that's it. That's a fact that you get when you continuously work with people, they do sound but I would I would disagree on the fact that you are not there at all because there is some, I don't know, I would put it that way that you have some particular aspects of a master that would be important to you, for instance, I would, I would think that you have the space and also base bass that would be I find, particularly Interesting in your masters that you care about it a lot, right? Would you agree on that?
Zino Mikorey :Totally. The space like the size and sort of holographic quality, but I would say of the mix. So most of the time, what I'm doing is feature what's in the mix. And kind of preserve the processing that most mastering engineers use, takes away the bass takes away the space diminishes kind of groove and dynamics. And if and just me, trying to keep it or me being in love with the mix me listening to the mix, celebrating the mix, will keep those things because even if you just take a limiter and you start limiting, not even to the amounts that it's particularly loud, you will already lose the last octave you will already lose that stereo. So I don't have Yeah, obviously it's my taste and what I want but I see it more as a preservation, then something that I overdue or something, but yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Kling :But that's a good spot to ask you the questions. I mean, what can you expect? Like Like no bullshit, what can you expect? And what can you not expect from a great mastering engineer?
Zino Mikorey :You should expect that it's better than what you sent him. I'm laying low, low. No but, I mean, it should be better it should. For me, it has to sound more dynamic, more open, wider, deeper, the groove should either get better and feel a bit snappier, faster, more agile, or it should not change. Obviously, if the mix is great, and I tried to get the mixes to the point where I really loved them before I start mastering in the first place, then I don't want the groove to get worse while being loud. And the next thing is you shouldn't hear It's loud. Like whenever I, I feel that the loudness is now doing something to the song, then I try to either get it loud a different way or go go back with level. And it should get like, okay, here's the better thing, you should get your song back and you listen to it and you don't think about the mix anymore. You don't think about production anymore. Don't think about the master anymore. You're just listening to it and you're happy and you kind of it's done, you're happy it's finished and all the all the problems or whatever has been in there are past.
Chris Kling :So what can you not expect then? So let's put it this way. I mean, as a mixing engineer, I sometimes have the case that you have a self producing artist that hands you in the mix and they kind of you know how it is sometimes they don't have the best options to to actually hear what they're doing. So you get some roughs and these wraps are really Have some I don't know, if they had some molds in the room or anything that happens, you know that you have a high base or a low base or no base at all, or whatever it happens. And then you fix that, which you define as obvious problems. Obviously, that results in some level changes. And sometimes you might be lost because I mean, obviously mixing you have some more buttons to push. Yeah. And let's say if you would hand in that rough to mastering, would you be still the one who would try to fix that? Or would you say, hey, let's go back to mixing or let's go back to producing or raising human even do you have cases like that?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, of course. And also a lot of people now get in contact way earlier, to find out what they have to do to make it ready for mastering or to even find out what they have. Mm hmm. So, I mean, I will always try obviously, if it's a good If it's a good mixing engineer, I can do very little to it because it's already where it should be, I'm not going to change it just to be there. And if you get a demo mix, then you have to do more. And for me as a mastering engineer, both is great. So if I get a demo mix that has all or I'd rather get the demo mix with all divided, then a mix mix by a great mixer where everything is sort of bored out. Mm hmm. Or, or overly straightened or by the rulebook?
Chris Kling :Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. But talking about this, I mean, the point is also, I get asked that a lot as well. I mean, where does mixing and mastering start? Because all the the topics that you just touched what you do could also apply to a mixing engineer so...
Zino Mikorey :totally.
Chris Kling :where is where do you draw the line? Or is this there any?
Zino Mikorey :No, I don't draw a line. I don't like obviously the one is with a stereo file and EQ and, and the other one is with faders on different things. But in the very end, what we're trying to do is probably the same. And I think probably the also equipment choice wise, I have equipment that doesn't sound like I've done something on the mix, but the mix is better now.
Chris Kling :I get it.
Zino Mikorey :you know?
Chris Kling :Yeah.
Zino Mikorey :No, they don't really. I simply try to not get myself or not be in the position that you have to fix something that should be fixed somewhere else. You know, even if you get a shitty snare, you would probably talk to the producer about the snare. Instead of triggering something or overly accusing it you would first go in and find out Yes, if the snare because maybe the snare is supposed to be exactly like it is, but you just don't know yet because you're not The genre or you don't like this particular snare, or we all have our things we love and not some kick drums I just don't like. But obviously they need to be exactly like it so I don't change them.
Chris Kling :Yeah. Plus the options if you have a stereo some less than you would if exactly if you have that.
Zino Mikorey :Yeah. Or if you, for example, you have a vocal. There's the old old saying, and even on in the mixing stage, so you have a vocal that is overly brittle, but it sits perfectly in the mix. Mm hmm. He would go in and fix the frequencies on the vocal itself, it would dive back into the mix, and then you need to do something to get it back in the position where it was. If you put the same EQ curve on the master, then the position of the vocal in the mix would stay, but the brittleness is gone. Yeah. So yeah, there's no, I'm sorry, maybe I'm too vague here. But I've literally I just try to not to not sort of be forced to do something, but rather be free and be able to decide what needs to be changed and where it needs to be changed. And that's why I communicate so much to make that happen. Because if you just would go into the into every day with just a booking and not listen to the stuff, then you would be trapped to fix it now, because the release date is what the deadline is today. But if you listen to it one week earlier, and then you already find out what's the problem, talk to everyone, then they need to they can do the decision. They can make the decision to either change it or not change it. And there's definitely some opportunities in that if they hear the problem because the problem is there. They're not hearing it anymore. If you wash the ears, then they hear it. This will create opportunity and bass in the mix and then you have it.
Chris Kling :That's a great option. That's what I value about the work. Yeah, but it takes obviously takes a lot of time, right? Yeah.
Zino Mikorey :Yeah. It takes a lot of time lots of organizing, and sometimes it doesn't work out. If you have a busy week then. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't work out. So you need to be need to be organized. Yeah, you always need to be organized. Yeah. But that's like I have grade system at home. I have grades. Headphones at home so I can do it. When my for example, my daughter goes to sleep when I'm listening to some mixes, write feedback. That's what you have to do. And I want to make the records like this. And I don't want to fix something. I just want to finish the records. You know what I mean? So you really Yeah, everybody makes a decision. Also when somebody I have to sometimes when people go like, Oh, we really love it, but can we change a little bit here and there and they think that it this is annoying, but I actually love This, if you're everybody's happy, or you're so close, and then you just invest the last hour to make it perfect. And that could be just fixing some like shifting some track markers. It could be automating some strings in the C part or whatever it is like to make it as perfect as we can.
Chris Kling :That's why we are in this right at the end of the day.
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, totally. We can I always tell people, like if we can now change everything, but once it's out, you can change everything and you will never release things you know, because of an EQ cut. Because one instrument it won't happen. So let's do it now.
Chris Kling :Yeah, it's the worst feeling in the world. That track is out there. And you feel unhappy about something because he was stressed at that very moment. And it stays there forever. That's
Zino Mikorey :totally Yeah, sometimes you can change it that that's also okay. Like sometimes records come and I try to change But I realize it's it probably won't happen because either the mixer or the producer or the label is heavily into what has happened there. But other times, I had a record once. It was the Andrea's kumud album. And I think he released another one ever since. But it came and it was so loud and so squashed and was pumping and distorting. So I called the mixer and the producer, and I was just asking them like, Guys, if it would be pumping or distorting, then you know, you at least have some sort of room where you can go in and then they were like your land No, but we're in front of the deadline, we can change we can change it now and they would not be ready to invest the hours it takes to talk to everyone. And I said Do I have if I if I can if I'm able to take it down and kind of save the record would you be in for that and everybody thought like it's impossible anyway. So they said yes. And I think I called the artist and the manager of the artists and they were both open. And I took it down three DB or four DB even. And it completely opened up everything just kind of the choruses are back the spaces back the low unders back the grooves back, and then at the very end, all that they said was, it's surprising because it's not that it's really not they're more quiet now. But it gained so much so they're the step was not mastering, like obviously mastering it as well. But the step there was being the one that gets in the way and says stop, this is all fucked. Mm hmm. And then make the calls. You know, that was the biggest step. Obviously, the the headroom I created for myself and the frequencies I was able to push afterwards, but wouldn't have been able to master it this way without making the call first. Sorry, I'm getting from somewhere to anywhere...
Chris Kling :No, no, that's a good that's a great story to tell. I mean, It obviously shows something that you know what is possible if you if you go the extra mile, right? And if you're willing to get there and to to invest it to get something great out of it. I think that's, that's a good illustration for that. But that brings me to another question I have. I actually in all our phone calls, I never asked you this. So I'm happy to have the opportunity to talk with you now is you might know that I'm also somebody if I send a mix. I'm usually happy with it, and I don't want it to be changed a lot. But that's why I do not send you individual stems that that send you drums, vocals or vocals and instrumentals independently, but I saw that on your website even and even also on some other mastering web. So there's so many people tend to go in that direction lately to offer stem mastering options. Yeah. Why is this I mean, I mean, obviously makes sense from the regard what you're saying that you do. Try to get the best out of it and you have the option of getting more out of it. But then the question remains what where does again mixing and mastering the line gets even more blurry? And plus, why do you want this? I mean, what what is the target group of STEM mastering? Tell me about it. How do you see that?
Zino Mikorey :I see stem mastering especially with people that have been mixing for a long time. And since they do everything themselves from idea to finished mix, if you send a production and mix that are almost finished to mixer, most of the time, they will have to do something for their money, you know what I mean? So they will mix it, they will mix it, they will automate it, and most of the time, it's not meant to be so rude. But most of the time, that's it's a lot of evening out. It's a lot of kindness. My standard is such a hard word, but a lot of times I would have rather gotten rough mix, then the mix because the rough mix has all the energy. And so if you do the stem mastering, you can have your mix, but with all the dimension added and I can do obviously so much more with that then with a stereo song, and I do lots of automation. Like I literally see it more as a mixer than a mastering engineer. And if you have something that you really like or you're a producer with lots of experience and you've chosen all the sounds wisely, and you're not able to get the bass kick and instrumental vocals to work together and it's this one is overpowering the other one and then the vocal is too loud or it's too low. And you know this whole back and forth then stem mastering is such a great alternative because you just send it away and you know you will get back what you had with all the dimension and normal problems in the low end etc.
Chris Kling :You will define it as self recording artists and self mixing artists with lots of experience, but as I understand you, right, it does not replace a mix. It's just like adding something. If you have great roughs already, let's put it like that is that kind of a,
Zino Mikorey :if the sounds are what you want, the point is, if it's only about balances, and making stuff work together, is the it's a great alternative. Obviously, if you have a lead vocal that needs tons of work, that if it's if the whole production is somewhere, then it just needs that much more work, you know, so I won't go in and automate every s or you know, make a couple of backings, work together that what the producer or mixer needs to do, but if you know what you're doing, and you're obviously your speakers are great, and the balances are right, then it's a great opportunity. But if the lead lead vocalist somewhere and the backings are somewhere and piano is somewhere then you need to go to a mixer because most of the time the mixer will also tune will also add it and obviously if I get the stems I can't do all of this stuff so it's more about I you close to the finish line, but you can't get it there your own then semi strings, probably a better way. But if you're somewhere and maybe you're even this has taken a long step, then it's better to get a mixer in and fix the stuff that needs fixing.
Chris Kling :Okay,
Zino Mikorey :yeah, man, sometimes mixers, like sometimes also mixers lose perspective. And they've been working on the song forever. And then the artist comes back and there's a new kick and a new bass and then this happens and they rerecord the second verse, and then they do this. Then at some point the mixers in the same position as that To produce and then it hopefully or sometimes it's the deadline as well. You they would love to have more time and do it but today is the deadline so they sent me two stems because they know if when they get it back it's done.
Chris Kling :Yeah and sometimes it takes so much pressure off you if if an artist comes in and from the first time you stepped into the studio and you are aware of the fact that there is external mastering taking place because I get asked so many times that you know, we want to save that mastering and it's like well, you know, it's it's something that that has so much pressure on you I can say that as a producer who regularly mix the on productions as well is that it's exactly how you say that you lose the ears somewhere along the way. I mean, you you always have the opportunity and it saves you time right and therefore money as well because sometimes I have the feeling I need to let it rest for a week not listening to it and then revisit it to get a little bit Have that objectivity back that I had maybe at the beginning that he actually only have at the beginning. So I was also sometimes I mean, you might remember he was so happy to send you out the tracks before and you're getting back to me and say, Hey Chris, the snare does sound like a big clown
Zino Mikorey :I remember this, He was waving
Chris Kling :Oh shit, I gotta kill your darlings. I love the snare but it was too much.
Zino Mikorey :Yeah,
Chris Kling :yeah, no, that's, that's that's a great option. But Zino, talking about this. I mean, can you name the let's let's put it like Internet block style. The three worst things that you can do to a mastering engineer pick any? What do you think?
Zino Mikorey :Em, the three the number one worst thing is have a super harsh, bright, loud version that you've been listening to all the time. Oh, yeah, because everybody will get used to the harshness to the point where they're, yeah, they're, they're not hearing it anymore. And then you give them something balanced. And it sounds like it has no more energy, or something like that. So that's I guess, number one to make the demo is the worst to overcome is have something bright and loud. Yeah, that's pretty much the worst, then the next one would be like nowadays, I feel like we always have the possibility to go back, there's not really much. But maybe something harsh and dull would also be a thing that you have to go into fixing mode that I think if you're into fixing mode, then you can see the bigger picture anymore. So something that's harsh, but also kind of dullish and closed ins would be number two. Mm hmm. Other than that, there's not many things you can do now to make it horrible. Filtering could be the next one, like people overly filter stuff and the worst Due to your audio is, is so called modelmaker or cut on the side signal. Okay, maybe it shouldn't be too technical. But imagine it like this if you're filtering, that means at the filter frequency at the minus three DB point, your signal is phase reversed. So if you cut the base of the sides of your signals of the stereo information, for example at 150, which doesn't sound very high, so you would think that if you just cut away everything underneath hundred and 50 on the sides, not much stuff would happen. But now, the side information is phase reversed at 150 hertz, meaning its side reversed. If you change the face, that means you change the side so everything that was right will now be left and vice versa. And it will go there gradually. So you're pretty much screwed. up all this all the directivity and left right information underneath 300 400 500 depending on the filter you have, so I will not be able to change that back and the signal will just be blurred and all the depth is gone. Yeah. So, and that's also the funny thing is the best feedback I get is when I fight against mixers or or like self masters that have a lot of this mastering processing on like the Bobcats case stereo, for example, or the mono makers or all the crazy clippers and limiters and they screw up so much that most of the time, if I would fight against the mix, the master would probably be even better. But I'm still able to get anywhere they got without doing all this half harmful processing. And then in the very end you obviously have a way different signal.
Chris Kling :Yeah, but we're not talking about, which is great. I mean, we talked about three things that you can do to you, which are like from the mix side, right? How about, you know, how about personal stuff? I mean, which sentences Do you hate? You know, do you have some sentences where your clients call you and say, like, and you just like internally say, Oh, shut up, or maybe externally, I don't know.
Zino Mikorey :I mean, at the very end, if people don't realize what they have, that makes me sad. But sometimes people really go for something that doesn't suit the music, or, or they do something and then at the mastering stage, they want to they want to do something else. For example, there was a band that I used to work with a lot, and that I don't work for now anymore because it was just too distracting and too crazy for me. And the band always had lots of reverb. Everything was very sad a low MIDI darkish In the back, and they always did this and I always told them like, it's way too much reverb. If you dial back the reverb, this will happen, this will happen and this will happen. And it dialed back the reverb just to touch not even to the point that I thought it's good now, and they already said, Oh, no, the vibe is missing. It's not us anymore. So I said, Okay, then we'll not change anything. I'll just do whatever. And then always, they were always happy with the master. Everything was great. But then just maybe two weeks prior to release, they started comparing it to bands that are the exact opposite, crazy clipped, harsh, bright guitars, crazy. Everything was just like over the top. And if then somebody calls and they're super anxious about their release, and they tell you that they think their music sounds like this and like that, and then you listen to it and you know that it sounds like this but that's also the the charm or the great part about it, but they don't really hear it. And this isn't a successful band, you know, and when they bring out a song, it's very emotional. The fans react great to it. So it's not that anybody ever had a problem with their sound, but they always do. And they can really they can really see what they have and how emotional their product is how how good the mix sounds as a Rumi darkish, mystical mix, and then they just compare it to something that is just kind of squashed in your face. And that's Yeah, and I did that and did that and did it and always went for it. And they always said, like, Yeah, come by guys. We'll have a listen come by. We'll do this. But after, I don't know, three years, and it was also during Corona where I didn't have a lot of time anyway. And then the whole thing started and to be honest, I just couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't have them not see how great the song is not see how great it's working but Just been sort of trapped in this horrible reference. And we were listening to it in studio and I showed them all the artifacts, the other stuff, and how bright it was that we couldn't listen to it loud and really get into it. And then I played their song. And it was, we could turn it up all the way, you know, yeah, it was loud and big and the chorus was heading. And then we measured it and then told him like, the other song will be played back three, four DB lower, and better. But at the very end, it didn't make like, I wasn't able to tell them that their their producer is great, the band is great, and they should just kind of try to see what they have. And I remember the producer even told me one time that the last time he was visiting me at the studio was a very sad moment for him. And I was so surprised because I told him that he's a great producer and he should believe in himself. And what he has his sound, his style is special, and I really like it, but all he could hear is that He does it differently than the producer he's looking up to. So he even though I completely, how do you say praise what he was doing? He still heard it as if I was hating on his production style, which I wasn't.
Chris Kling :Yeah. All right, I get it. Yeah. But that's, that's, that's sometimes the thing. I had also experiences, a lot of times where people get very emotional when the stakes are high, right, when you have a product and everybody has high expectations, and and that's also where I was a little bit aiming for with that question. I'm glad you brought this up. Because I often had the case that it's all about, you know, the big term managing expectations, right? Everybody always has more or less hidden expectations to a certain phase in the production. May it be mixing, mastering, recording producing whatever. Yeah, and I think if if people are able to reflect on what to expect and what not to expect This could solve so many problems are and are aware of their own anxiousness. You know, if they have like a good style of communication, first of all, I think especially when working with people who are attached to their own emotions that much as artists, which is which is a good thing, but also, I feel that sometimes it is a trap where you can easily get lost in anxiousness, emotion expectations, and maybe even pressure from, you know, release labels or whatever. Do you have any approaches where you consciously say, oh, we're going this way? We need to steer in that election to keep that from happening.
Zino Mikorey :There's never a moment where I think I know it better or I need to do something now. So I will always communicate. And I would rather try and try and try and go to version three or four. Then talk too long. Like I would never get in the way and say no That's not right, or whatever. I just thought of something this morning regarding expectations. I did an album for an artist who used to work for one of the biggest mastering engineers like the biggest one maybe in the last 20 years. And, and he got the Masters two weeks ago, and he really liked it. But somehow he didn't know what to do with my master's. So he was like, Yeah, yeah, it sounds great. And I said, like, What do you need? What, what's what's your problem? But he didn't know. He was just like, he liked everything. But he was expecting something different. So I told him, you know, to just come by and we'll have a listen together, switch back to the mix. Mm. And today, he didn't tell me this before. But today when he was in the studio, he, he said, Yeah, you know, we have this reference and that reference and I said, oh, wow, I didn't know you had a reference. And I didn't also know how what he was expecting from the mastering and it's Somehow he was happy but somehow expected something different. And then the very end, we boosted the top end 12 kilohertz super wide Q, two dB. So for me, that's not a big change because I'm not a big fan of top end or like top end that's only top end, I don't really need it, then I'd rather choose the darker one because you have better access to the music. And compared to the brighter one where you're busy with the noise up there, the silvery metallic parts of it, and then so just boosted to be of top pencil. Every song got a little different boost, and then everything was happening for him. But the master the master was the exact same so there was no change in like, what what I'm changing the positions of instruments that depth, the solder power, that's it's only top end like it for me. It's a brighter representation, but it doesn't change anything in the music. So all the changes. I did were under music, the vocal needed a lift here, it sounded a bit this that a lip, and then we put the top end on and then he was happy. So if he would have either sent the reference from the beginning, or would have said like, you know the mixes sound way too dark, then I would have done this right away, but for him. And the funny thing is that he also had experience working with a mastering engineer for a couple of years. And that's why he was probably so surprised or not surprised, but he didn't know what to do with it. Because the other guy obviously made everything super bright. So he was expecting it to get super bright. And then he listened to it. And he said like, Yeah, it's great. The bass got better data, but I don't know, because it didn't get this much brighter, or maybe I saw it more. I think I saw the whole record more acoustic than he did and he saw it more pop more noisy.
Chris Kling :So it's just like based on listening experience that You expect a certain sound to for a master to have to be finished? Was it that happening in his head?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah,
Chris Kling :was it like hey masters have to be that bright to be like industry standard or something?
Zino Mikorey :Maybe or maybe he expected a bigger change like a more. Okay, I'm the guy I'm going to change it now for you maybe expected more. You say more me and this, but that makes us what great I already revised the mixes anyway. So the mixes were how I wanted them. And then I just did my usual spatial, you know, the whole opening it up giving it a better stage thing because the master mixes itself were great. But and the funny thing is, but in the very end, if I listened back to my version and the one with the top end, I prefer the one with the top end because now I understand his vision.
Chris Kling :It's weird, you know, sometimes it's so little details I have been thinking about a bad That, that came by and I did the mixes and it was kind of the same there were I sense that there were somewhat unhappy and and it's so good to have them there. And to just talk about that. And in my case, it was just like, the vocals were like, I took them down by one dB. And it was it, you know, everything it was just like, but nobody could, like really articulated that it was exactly this. But at the end of the day, I think that's the job that we have also as professionals, maybe, to totally to sense where it's going to be, you cannot expect, you know, from the artists to say, Hey, take the vocals down for one dB, and that will be good. You know, it's like, it takes a lot of time to get, you know, maybe to to get the good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Zino Mikorey :And I also think that as an engineer, one of them maybe the most important part is communication and to bridge the gap. Yeah, if you if you do that, then you can To work with everyone and everybody will be happy because it's easy to communicate and you will get where you want it to go in the first place. That's why I also don't like big discussions as much. I'd rather try to three things then talk about it for half an hour. Because on the way, either something new will happen, or you will realize that it's not the right way. Or you will realize what they wanted in the first place. And you were thinking something different. Yes. Yeah, I had the story. Who was it? It was a rapper, and I was talking about him with a couple of producers. And the guy never he never kind of took the dive to find out what he what was disturbing him. But for example, at one time, it was a Hyatt that gotten attached too loud. And then he just wrote back I don't feel this at all anymore, and everybody was so kind of shocked and yeah, also sad because now he didn't feel it anymore. And it sounded like the beat was off the record. The track was off the record, when it was simply the highest It's being too loud. And he was so disappointed. Yeah, no, it's horrible and blah, blah. And, and then the producer said like, you can't do this, you can't do this to us you have to put in the time and find out what's distracting you. Because now everybody's off. Nobody has the nobody wants to work on something where they lost interest in something. So
Chris Kling :I totally feel that you know, you know, on a very human level we have to keep each other motivated. But obviously these processes take a lot of time sometimes it goes really quick. But sometimes it takes ages to to get to the spot but then you happy You got it. But that's you know, I I want to talk with you about one topic that is a little bit of a taboo to talk about when people say but it's money right? So money yeah, it's people hate about talking with money, but I think this is also a big topic, especially in mastering me You also know and You know people you probably do not compare about it's all this you know sent me a track I'll send you the master back and you know sent me a free test mastering and all that stuff I mean it's a big industry at the end of the day there's so many hundreds and probably thousands of engineers making business like that yeah and I just recently finished a record from some of those guys who sits in Nashville and you know and got the Masters back and I did the mixes and I really liked them and you got them back at minus six ltfs or something like that so really loud and I asked them hey, why do you do this because I mean we're going to talk about like, all this loudness topic maybe later on if you have fine time but and he said, you know, hey, I can send you more dynamic ones what will be an extra you know, I don't know $50 Extra charge. Oh Wow. I can do something like that. And it's like, and at the end of no don't matter and I was not the one paying for it. I was just, you know, I like to speak with mastering engineers. So for most of my clients, I get in touch with the mastering engineer to give them, you know, some extra input if they need any and have the link there, if it's needed, but you know, I mean, obviously, I know your prices, and they're on the website as well. And I know the other prices. What do you think of that? I mean, what's, what's the deal?
Zino Mikorey :So in the very end, speaking, generally, I look at my catalog, I don't want to have a shitty record, or a squashed record in my catalog. So I always try to do that. But money wise, I think it's more of how many bookings do you have? How much can you do? How big is the whole thing? For example, the price on my website is a price per song, but that includes communication, feedback. So in the very end, it's quite cheap for what is happening. Oh, yeah, I agree. You know, yeah, so it's quite funny. Even though I'm as expensive as the most expensive ones in Germany, so yes, it's not cheap, but it's also not expensive.
Chris Kling :Germany's is very cheap. Yeah. for mastering if you compare it to Britain or the US
Zino Mikorey :the funny thing is that most of the guys that are super expensive, I don't hate. I don't hate saying this. But I asked one guy at some point because he had a studio with all the gear, did tons of records and he only cost I don't know, 40 euros. So I asked him like, man, you've been in this for 2030 years. Why do you only charge for the euros? And then he said, because he's doing 25 or 30 songs a day?
Chris Kling :Oh, yeah, good for him.
Zino Mikorey :yeah, but that's horrible because I obviously I charge three times that much, but I only do an album a day. So I'm going to invest the time I'm not going to take it run it through my usual chain and you know, try to get it done as fastest possible, I'm listening to it out, I'll invest the time. If it takes two days, then it takes two days, if the song takes four hours, or if I'm in the song, and I realize I won't be able to do it, I have to go back to the mixing stage, then I will do that. So I charged the amount that I have to charge to do what I do kind of, because I don't want to be trapped in thinking, Oh, I already spent half an hour on the song. This is now getting expensive for me. But this guy, he's literally just in it to do as much sounds as possible for the amount or other some other guys say that their genre doesn't have money. And there's another thing with somebody calling you and telling that they love what you're doing. They love your work, but they only have X amount of money. And that equals to me as as if I would be investing in the project because now I'm cutting my rates meaning I give them I invest in the project. So First question is, do I want to do this project again, do a do a one, two, I want to do another record like this. Yeah, that depends. That's number one. If I don't want to do it anyway, I wouldn't take it, even if they would pay for it. Because if I have an album out there performing good that I don't want to do again, I will have to do this album again. So I don't want to do this. So first of all, do I even want to invest in it? And then the next question is, why don't they invest in it? If it's their product, then I'm gonna release it, they will be on tour with it. Why don't they invest in it if they already spent all this time and in the variant, it's not easy, like you're not easy to find, um, maybe a little easier to find, but still a mastering engineers not like a supermarket. So you will have to get involved to even find out who we are in the first place. And then you choose me. And then you look at the prices and data and also I have written on my website, how I work that I'm super happy about listening To the mixers early so if you're not, if you don't want to be involved anyway like full time and you're just trying to grab something that you don't think your music is worth, because otherwise you would invest anyway then the whole thing is not laced with pure energy or yeah your intention anyway.
Chris Kling :Exactly. I mean, obviously there is a budget for everything and some some things might be out of reach because simply put, because you don't have the money, you know, of course, but But the thing is, what I feel what you put on the table is energy, right? That's the thing working in music. That's what you put in communication time and energy, energy, energy, and it's sometimes it can be exhausting, maybe and maybe, I don't know, of course, some people pick the way of Hey, I'm tired and because also, I mean, I told you early that I was having a couple of beers with Andrew Scheps and Tchad Blakeearlier this year before Corona hit. Yes, and My biggest harika moments were that they said, you know, Chris, that never ends you know, even even if you have like so and so many Grammys on the shelf, it never changes, you always have to go that path. It's never easy. It's you always have to deal with the same artists that you might not understand in the first place. And it's never that they, you know, they have expectations, you might not be able to read them in the correct way and so on whatsoever. So, you know, I could only imagine that sometimes you get tired, right? Did you have moments like that where you said, Ah, shit, I cannot deal with it anymore. I get tired.
Zino Mikorey :So hard to say because I'm always interested in what happens. So I think I'm more interested, like the thing is mixing is a whole different ballpark than mastering, you know, if you if you mix a whole day on one song, and then the most crucial parts of it or wrong, that has so many more. That's so much more to do than if I don't have enough top end or low. And so most of the time, it goes so fast to make a change that I'm, I don't really have it. But obviously I told you the story earlier where I really had to kind of let the band go. Yeah, even though they're good friends, but I had to let it go because it's not. I I don't want to make records like this. I want to be happy when something is finished.
Chris Kling :You either ruin the record or ruin the friendship, right?
Zino Mikorey :Yeah, totally. So yeah, but then the very end I don't think there will ever be a point where I am sort of finished and now you will always have a client that wants something else that here is a different really, but it's it's an opportunity to understand and learn is really hard to say I don't think I had the moment where I was really tired and anything but definitely parts of it. Or sometimes there's just so many mixes to listen to that I do Don't even know which makes to listen to first. And then just let the weekend go by and then it come in on Monday, maybe an important thing would be a little disconnected, but also sort of more general is to not feel the pressure. And if you don't, if you can't handle it today, then forget about it and enjoy the day because you will be able to handle it tomorrow or the day after. Or there will be a day where you just get back to it and go, Oh, god, that was easy. And it doesn't feel easy today. Maybe it's not meant to be happening today. Same as Yeah, obviously, I'm always trying to be as fast as possible with everything, but sometimes it just doesn't work. Or I'm in a session all day. And then I'm in the session and there's emails coming in constantly and the phone is vibrating, and you could get stressed, but have to get over it. But yeah, I think with time comes experience and And this will calm you down to not only react to it,
Chris Kling :that's a good way of putting it. Yes. A nice life advice your giving. Yeah, I think for every every dollar or every part, industry you're working Yeah, exactly. Now we've been talking already a long time. But there's one topic I might want to touch as the last thing. I just remarked that we didn't touch the topic, loudness at all for a podcast episode about mastering which I assume it's actually a good thing to happen maybe. Before we had to the last question I have for you. I know the answer already for it, but maybe just just do it to to point it out to our fellow listeners. optimization, loudness optimization for the file for different platforms. is this important? Does it does it make sense to make it as loud as possible on the individual platforms or not? What's the issue with loudness? How do you see this? How do you approach this?
Zino Mikorey :So I give us most of the time I give a shit about loudness. It's always only about the sound because every every loudness is a sweet spot. If you push more, you will have less dynamics and less and differences but in the balances of the different elements. Sometimes you can fix something like a too loud kick, snare vocal, you can fix over loudness. I, for me, different loudness on different formats is not a good idea. Also, I've talked about this with my vinyl cutter and tried it a couple of times. And everybody has kind of the same opinion that there is one master to rule them all. There is this one sweet spot that you go to and then it sounds Like, that's how it's supposed to be. And so I will always try to aim for the lowest possible volume I can go. But that is mostly above minus 14. And it's probably in the minus 11 to minus 10 range, I'm trying to go to minus 11, trying to go to minus 12. Because there, that's where it sits the best most of the time. If somebody makes it to minus eight lF s, that means it will probably have to stay there. Maybe if I go down one dB, it will gain but most of the time, the balances are just right there, because they squash the transients of the drums. Yeah, to sit exactly where they're supposed to sit in the limiter, or whatever. And, and the funny thing is, if I think about it, some records, they're not even allowed to get near zero, and others zero are in the zero from the very beginning. So there is literally no rules. And I'm a big believer in one master to rule all formats. So I will try to find a spot where it sits exactly right. And if you would lower it for some Spotify or vinyl, then this would not be the perfect master anymore. Because when I see Yeah, with level comm all these, like for example, the transients get softer, and the drums a little more buried, the low end, the lowest octave will change. So lowering a master will immediately result in a different sound. And I had to learn the hard way because back in the day, I used to make the sound first and then turn it up, and then do the sound again. Yeah, you know, and this makes you master the track two times and now I go level first, and then I start kind of tweaking the frequencies and the dynamics or obviously going into the level is Is tweaking the dynamics already. I would not make a couple of different masters.
Chris Kling :Yeah plus, it's so I mean, temporary and individual. I didn't know if I told you once, it's actually a nice little story about a master that you did. I remember this was a single and we did the EP afterwards of a German band. I was really happy with the first single, you know, one of these productions Hey, you were happy with the mix. I sent it out to you. You were happy with the mix and I was happy with the master right away no revisions. And then we had the rest of the EP. And there were some singers, there was one very dense track that we kind of messed around with a lot. Yeah, you didn't like it? And I said now I know. It's been tricky, you know, and then we and then it hit the platforms. And all of a sudden the track that I like most was kind of feeling a bit dull and tracks I like lesser, were better, and probably was just only loudness. Right Apple Music It was great. But on Spotify and YouTube, we were like, hey, the other tracks that we were actually less happy with when we listened to the files were a little bit better Actually, we perceived it as better. I wouldn't say better. But, you know, and then we said no, yeah, you know, that's the way it is. But for some reason, I revisited the tracks in a playlist. It was maybe a year later. And the result was the track that was a little bit duller and a little bit less loud, measured and sounded completely different and way better than the other ones because they change the algorithm or whatever, you know. So you can you can, you can rely on that, if that was that was my election of just make it sound good. And eventually it will be good because all these algorithms they, they get improved and whatever or amended change. I had an album I wanted to bring to minus 14. So Spotify would Turn it up, and it would land in Spotify as limiter. But the album was impossible to get to minus 14 because it was so dynamic that you heard you already heard the bending of the transients, and it was meant never meant to measure this loud. And the artist accepted that I wanted to bring it up to minus 14. And after three hours, we did this together after three hours of turnaround, and I said it will never fuck 14 and he was laughing at me. And he said, I know. I just wanted to see if you could maybe do it. And then he told me that this album will be sold on vinyl on a flea market in 50 years, and in 50 years there will be no Spotify. So why should I change it now for something which record was this? Can you tell?
Zino Mikorey :Nils Frahm - All Melody.
Chris Kling :Oh, right. Great.
Zino Mikorey :And it measures minus 16.5 and that is really the maximum it can have because If you go half a DB higher you will have some of the low end attacks not be original anymore. And obviously this is a very, very audio file racket where nothing as been nothing has been suffering for any level. But in the very end he was perfectly right and ever since that I make records to be as they are, I will never try to fuck it for some format or whatever. Yeah. And some records really measure like some records I do they are at minus 19 minus 20. Wow. So Spotify if you have loudness matching on then Spotify will limit this file a lot. Yes, but the audio itself is intact and if you listen to it, and most people that have a very sort of audio foul taste, they will use title anyway or they will be they will have loudness normalization switched off as most of the records will suffer from it. Yeah. And yeah, but in the very end, I had another note, this is another great example. There was a band that came to me with the new album, and they told me the story. So the last album they had mastered in the UK, and the guys squashed it extremely. But he wasn't able to squash one song as much as the others, or he squashed it the same amount, but it didn't sound as loud as the others. So he did. They said, they're sorry, this song is not loud enough. And then he mastered it even brighter and even louder, so it could compare to the rest of the songs. But now, the song obviously got turned down so much more than the others on Spotify. So now it was even lower than before. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, sure. So you have a song and you have it, kind of measuring similar but sounding way less loud. And then you turn it up, and then Spotify will turn it down even more. So you're you will always be trapped within within the algorithm. That's making a decision. Yeah. And I even know stories about like, there's one mastering guy I know that he tells me every time he's happy, he just puts in another dB of very top end. So he sounds bright enough for the for the playlists. But I would never change a song for a playlist change a song for a format. Yeah, that is horrible.
Chris Kling :Yeah. And plus many of the mixing and mastering engineers I really highly value and talk with, they all say they might have 100% different approaches to what they do and what to talk about and also what music they Master, but they all seem to agree in the fact that they don't compare. They say I don't I don't want to shoot references. And that's the same thing that you told me right? You don't compare your masters A B to whatsoever. So and they all seem to agree That's really interesting and I think comparison makes you vulnerable for fears right? And it's about overcoming the fear of not being measured mobile with somebody and I think compare is always something that makes you less unique. Maybe you know and and gets you will wave From where does the record want to go? Right? Somebody once said, I don't want to go to mastering because I don't want my record to sound like all the other records. Whoa. And it's, it's a, it's a fair point. Okay. It's a very fair point. And I compare brutally to the mix or whatever has been sent to me. Of course, totally, like, I don't want to lose anything that the indication of what the artist was right? Yeah, exactly. And I want to stay in the ballpark. And we all know super doll records that are insanely emotional. We also all know superbright records that have so much power, so there's no comparing and sort of matching. So thing will never be the answer. It will out the answer I think will always be listening to the song and getting into this world instead of comparing it to something else that because everything has to have an end. That leads us to our last question and that's maybe a good transition to, you know, services like lander and similar that now go to AI based mastering and you also said that you are working on a plugin with acoustic audio. That kind of does things automatically. So tell me about it. Yeah, as you noted already, but what is
Zino Mikorey :I'm thinking more of the release time or the attack time, you know, of a De-Esser or of a..
Chris Kling :what is your insight on the future of mastering? Do you think AI based mastering in parts or as a whole has a future or do you believe that in whole or or in In parts, the future of mastering will go automatically?
Zino Mikorey :So if I make a song, I want to have a person making the decisions. And especially the further to the finish line I get I drew, I want to have the skilled professional making the decisions. I don't want to have some automatic service scanning and sort of do, how the other thousand songs sounded. That's number one. And then number two is if you there is a guy who uploaded the same file to lander and all these mastering services. And the file he got back he uploaded again, he uploaded again and he uploaded again. And most of these algorithms do the same. So they do the same and same and same and same and same. So they will always add a touch more top end and make it a little louder. And even if you upload that file to it, it will make it brighter and louder then you re upload you get it brighter and louder. So in the very end, those services most of the time they try to move mimic what's happening. And while most mastering engineers will make it brighter and louder that is mastering making something brighter, louder, because you just sorry, my coffee machine. Yeah, so while most people make it brighter and louder, you could just do that to your mix as well. And the funny thing is, every time somebody sends me like somebody says, Oh, we don't have any budget for this song, so we uploaded it to lander or something. Most of the time I tell them, take a clean limiter, make it as loud as the file you got back and then compare and 99.9% her the mix with the limiter on his winning against the lander, or Aria or whatever they called file. And for me, I don't even feel sorta fought against or I don't feel any sort of competition from the services because people That aim for lowest cost algorithm to do mastering are not the people I'm working with Anyway, those are the people I'm working with. They're, they're listening to their album, and they have this emotional connection to it. And they want me to have my emotional connection with it, do what I'm doing to the music, and then I sent the back. And most of the time, they're happy with it. And most of the time, it's maybe more open, but not necessarily brighter. You know? Yeah. It's, it's really just like, do you want to have sent your song to a person and this person will have an emotional reaction to it? Or, you know, send it to some scanning algorithm that scans how the top end is and debase and then kind of lowers and hires? what's, what the last thousand songs sounded like. And that's not really mastering to me. Mastering is not making something sound like everything else. That's not mastering.
Chris Kling :That's a really nice closing word for a first episode.
Zino Mikorey :Thank you This was a lot of fun. I didn't think we would do this for two hours.
Chris Kling :Yes, same to you Zino. I really appreciate you taking time to talk with me on so many topics now and I really looking forward for our next project together and wishing you the greatest of days and have a good time mastering records today.
Zino Mikorey :Thank you very much.
Unknown Speaker :Tape Talks. The podcast for the the recording artist. Brought to you by Klangkantine Studios.